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Old 01-17-2015, 08:23 AM   #1
CWtheMan
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Certification/Tire Placard

Last weekend I went to the RV show in Greenville, SC. I looked at hundreds of trailers and almost all of the fivers and took a lot of pictures. Keystone was well represented but didn’t have a Big Sky there.

I took pictures of a lot of RV trailer certification labels and tire placards.

RV trailer manufacturers MUST follow instructions in a long list of government regulations. Before they write and publish a certification label they must insure it’s correct. Errors will normally require a recall once any of the trailers with errors are sold. Keystone has been subjected to recalls for inaccurate certification labels in the past.

In the picture of a typical certification label I’ve posted below you can clearly see that each GAWR is listed as being 7000#. That means the Keystone published hitch weight has to be at least 2360#, and that is what is published in the specs. And therein lies the first problem. To meet tire fitment regulations the certified GAWR figure for each axle can not be over 6840# (for the depicted label). Now when using the lower GAWR figure with the published hitch weight, they do not equal or exceed the certification labels GVWR which is a minimum regulation figure.

Lets go back to that tire fitment statement. I went into the trailer with this certification label on it and read it’s owner’s manual. No where in it or on the trailer’s certification/tire placard labels did I find a tire disclaimer statement about the fitted tires (ST235/80R16E) and that’s the biggest problem with the labeling.

The Goodyear and Maxxis line of ST tires sized ST235/80R16E are only provided with a maximum load capacity of 3420#, not enough for 7000# GAWR axles.

Sure, the OE tires are Power King TowMax STRs with a maximum load capacity of 3520# but without documentation what would prevent the new owner from using the GY or Maxxis as replacements?

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=27420

I’ve posted this here for heads-up information. Keystone knows the problem because I pointed it out to their rep at the RV show. There is no easy way for Keystone to correct those errors, so I suspect they will remove some weight from the GVWR by changing cargo capacity and then replace the existing certification label with the proper weights for their specs.

I was surprised to see these errors on a Keystone trailer because one would think they would have learned from their previous error of the same kind.

CW
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:20 AM   #2
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What's your point? Just because you have 7000# axles doesn't mean you have 14k# weight on the tires. They are either going to put 5000# or 7000# axles on. Maybe the trailer weight not carried by the pin is just over 10000#. Then your 3420# Maxxis are o.k.
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Old 01-17-2015, 06:36 PM   #3
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What's your point? Just because you have 7000# axles doesn't mean you have 14k# weight on the tires. They are either going to put 5000# or 7000# axles on. Maybe the trailer weight not carried by the pin is just over 10000#. Then your 3420# Maxxis are o.k.
The GAWR figure found on your trailers certification label is the figure its manufacturer says the tires may have to support. Vehicle owners are responsible for their trailer's weight and balance. So, if you have a trailer with a couple of certified 7000# axles you have the potential to put that much weight on them. In such a case, the 3420# tires would be severely overloaded.

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Old 01-17-2015, 06:45 PM   #4
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So your limitation is tires not the axles. Just don't overload your tires. You can also upgrade to Goodyear G614's or Sailun 637's for a max load of 3750# per tire.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:01 PM   #5
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This is a problem that I think most of us have eluded to in the past. Keystone puts a tire on these RVs that is nearly maxed out. Owners have to watch the weight ratings closely when replacing tires. Unfortunately, many just look at the plate and see the size/load rating required and buy them, not knowing enough to look at the weight ratings. Personally, I wish they would just put a heavier tire on from the start. I just upgraded from the 235/80/16E to a 235/85/16F Carlisle. The 85 is slightly taller, but I had plenty of room.
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Old 01-17-2015, 07:47 PM   #6
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One of the "magic tricks" that Keystone (and other manufacturers) does is to "derate" the axles. You may find a trailer with Dexter 7000 lb axles (per the tag on the axle) and the Certification label may rate them at 6400 lbs with tires rated at 3260 each. (These numbers are not from an actual label but pulled out of the air as an example). In that case, the axle has been "derated" by Keystone so it is "legal" to be installed with the tires that are being placed on the axle.

Is it "legal"? Yes, Is it the "best thing to do" Probably not, but if Keystone left the rating at 7000 lbs, they would have to upgrade the tires (more money), so its "cost effective" to derate the axles, install the cheaper tires and send it to the dealer with the Certification label reflecting the limitations.

Once the owner buys it, decides to replace the tires, if he looks at only the size and load rating (ex 275 75R16 LRE) he may find tires that are not rated at 3260 each, or he may find tires that are rated at 3520.

With either tire, the Certification label states the axle is rated at 6400 pounds, so even putting the tires rated at 3520 each (7040 total) on the axle, it is still rated (per Keystone) as only certified to carry 6400 pounds.

I think what CW is trying to say is that no matter what the axle tag says, no matter what the cert label requires for tire size/load rating, not only to look at the tags for size of tire, but to look closely at what the numbers are that's on the tag. The components may not be rated at their maximum, but may be derated to "fit the application" ......
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:40 PM   #7
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This little shell game that Keystone is playing in which they "derate the axles" might also be played by the axle and tire manufacturers. If Keystone can get away with fudging the figures and; and in a sense, falsify the information on the labels and tags then whose to say that Dexter or Goodyear aren't messing around with their ratings as well.

And just where does all this leave the consumer who thinks he might be doing the right thing by looking at all these tags and labels believing that the data on them is correct?

Just because there are government regulations saying that the information on the tires and/or axles must be correct, it doesn't mean that it is - if your example about Keystone's manipulation of the numbers is what is really happening.

I always thought that the information found on all of these tags and labels was there for the protection and safety of the consumer. From what you are saying, it is there for the convenience and ultimately the profits for Keystone and other manufacturers.

So what is the point of us all trying to ensure that we don't exceed any of the ratings and all of the other "numbers" found on labels on door jams, tire sidewalls, wheels, axles and goodness knows where else? Why bother even looking at them when they might be "derated", "upgraded", or tweaked to save a few bucks somewhere else?

Here I sit trying to figure out where the pea is. I know it's under one of those 3 shells but which one? I think I've been conned.
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:48 AM   #8
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Question

How can I find the actual capacity of my axels?
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Old 01-18-2015, 07:20 AM   #9
CWtheMan
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Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
This little shell game that Keystone is playing in which they "derate the axles" might also be played by the axle and tire manufacturers. If Keystone can get away with fudging the figures and; and in a sense, falsify the information on the labels and tags then whose to say that Dexter or Goodyear aren't messing around with their ratings as well.

And just where does all this leave the consumer who thinks he might be doing the right thing by looking at all these tags and labels believing that the data on them is correct?

Just because there are government regulations saying that the information on the tires and/or axles must be correct, it doesn't mean that it is - if your example about Keystone's manipulation of the numbers is what is really happening.

I always thought that the information found on all of these tags and labels was there for the protection and safety of the consumer. From what you are saying, it is there for the convenience and ultimately the profits for Keystone and other manufacturers.

So what is the point of us all trying to ensure that we don't exceed any of the ratings and all of the other "numbers" found on labels on door jams, tire sidewalls, wheels, axles and goodness knows where else? Why bother even looking at them when they might be "derated", "upgraded", or tweaked to save a few bucks somewhere else?

Here I sit trying to figure out where the pea is. I know it's under one of those 3 shells but which one? I think I've been conned.

OK, I’ll try it this way. RV trailer manufacturers MUST comply with the minimum values dictated to them via a long list of DOT regulations. Those regulations apply to builders only, though often misunderstood by owners as things they can also manipulate.

The GAWR rating found on the trailer’s certification label is just one part of an equation needed by the trailer builder to establish its GVWR, cargo capacity and hitch weight, all of which must conform to the regulations. The DOT clearly gives the trailer builder the option to set GAWR lower than the axle manufacturer’s established load capacity. Why? When building to specs the specs must be established.

Others with Keystone products have seen this manipulation of the specs with other axles. The Dexter 5200# axles often used by Keystone may sometimes be set to a GAWR of 5080#. That’s so they can use tires rated at 2540# on those axles.

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Old 01-18-2015, 07:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiroule View Post
How can I find the actual capacity of my axels?
Normally the axle will have a metal band attached to it with its part number, serial number and load capacity information.

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Old 01-18-2015, 08:22 AM   #11
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CW -
My point is that if Keystone can manipulate the rating of the axle so that they can slap a tire with a lower rating and probably a less expensive, inferior one on the RV and; in the process save money, what does that tell us?

You can have all the government regulations and all the "MUST comply and must confirm" statements in those rules you want but if manufacturers are playing games with those numbers and using them so they can skimp elsewhere, what have all those government regulations accomplished?

I'm not trying to be argumentative and won't comment further so I will leave the last word for you.

I'm sorry CW but I still don't know where that darn pea is!
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Old 01-18-2015, 09:23 AM   #12
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Festus,

Since I "stepped into this pile of poo" a couple of posts ago, maybe I can "sort of" explain the "location of the pea"....

It's under the GVW shell.

As I interpret it, the manufacturer (Keystone) sets the GVW for the trailer, then starts assembling components that "meet or exceed" that GVW. Let's assume the GVW is established at 10,000 pounds. First, the frame/chassis must be rated at least that high.

The manufacturer "can" (but sometimes doesn't) deduct a portion of that GVW that is to be carried on the tongue/pin. Let's say 1000 pounds. That leaves, in this case, 9000 pounds to be supported by the axles.

Let's assume that axles are available in ratings of 3500, 4400, 5000 and 7000 pounds. Clearly, the first two would not support 9000 pounds, so the minimum axle the manufacturer could put under the trailer is the 5000 pound axle. That leaves a "gap" of excess rating.

Now, the axles, at full capacity, require a tire that is rated at a minimum of 2500 pounds each. Let's say, 225 75R15 LRD (rated at 2700 lb). So the manufacturer can install tires that cost $100 each and have an "excess rating" or can install smaller tires that still support the required 4500 pounds per axle or 2250 per tire. So, the manufacturer can reasonably install 205 75R15 LRC tires (rated at 2300). If the "lighter rated tire" costs $75 each, the manufacturer can see a profit of $100 per trailer by installing the smaller rated tires, still meet the "under-rated axle" requirement and also conform to the information on the Certification label as well as meet the DOT requirements. The manufacturer simply "de-rates" the axle rating to meet the new tire capacity. As long as the "tongue/pin" added to the axle/tire capacity all meet or exceed the total GVW, the math works. Assuming the manufacturer left the axles at their "full capacity" then the lighter tires could not be used because they would not meet the total 5000 pound axle capacity. With the de-rated axle clearly listed on the Certification label, the manufacturer can install the lighter tires and still conform to the DOT requirement. As stated, the manufacturer (Keystone) is responsible for certifying that all components meet the "MINIMUM" requirement and is also responsible for listing those "MINIMUM" requirements on the Certification label.

I completely agree, this "magic" doesn't bode well for the owner who is trying to add and subtract to get things to match, especially when looking at the individual component ratings. But in this situation, the manufacturer "de-rated" the axles to conform to the total GVW by installing cheaper tires and under-rating the axles while still exceeding the GVW rating when adding things together.

Not simple to explain and certainly difficult to understand, but it's all about the "final GVW"..... That's where the "pea must be hidden"......

I hope this "kinda helps"
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Old 01-18-2015, 09:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Festus,

Since I "stepped into this pile of poo" a couple of posts ago, maybe I can "sort of" explain the "location of the pea"....

It's under the GVW shell.

As I interpret it, the manufacturer (Keystone) sets the GVW for the trailer, then starts assembling components that "meet or exceed" that GVW. Let's assume the GVW is established at 10,000 pounds. First, the frame/chassis must be rated at least that high.

The manufacturer "can" (but sometimes doesn't) deduct a portion of that GVW that is to be carried on the tongue/pin. Let's say 1000 pounds. That leaves, in this case, 9000 pounds to be supported by the axles.

Let's assume that axles are available in ratings of 3500, 4400, 5000 and 7000 pounds. Clearly, the first two would not support 9000 pounds, so the minimum axle the manufacturer could put under the trailer is the 5000 pound axle. That leaves a "gap" of excess rating.

Now, the axles, at full capacity, require a tire that is rated at a minimum of 2500 pounds each. Let's say, 225 75R15 LRD (rated at 2700 lb). So the manufacturer can install tires that cost $100 each and have an "excess rating" or can install smaller tires that still support the required 4500 pounds per axle or 2250 per tire. So, the manufacturer can reasonably install 205 75R15 LRC tires (rated at 2300). If the "lighter rated tire" costs $75 each, the manufacturer can see a profit of $100 per trailer by installing the smaller rated tires, still meet the "under-rated axle" requirement and also conform to the information on the Certification label as well as meet the DOT requirements. The manufacturer simply "de-rates" the axle rating to meet the new tire capacity. As long as the "tongue/pin" added to the axle/tire capacity all meet or exceed the total GVW, the math works.

I completely agree, this "magic" doesn't bode well for the owner who is trying to add and subtract to get things to match, especially when looking at the individual component ratings. But in this situation, the manufacturer "de-rated" the axles to conform to the total GVW by installing cheaper tires and under-rating the axles while still exceeding the GVW rating when adding things together.

Not simple to explain and certainly difficult to understand, but it's all about the "final GVW"..... That's where the "pea must be hidden"......

I hope this "kinda helps"
Excellent explanation. I was trying to figure out how to say what you did. Keystone isn't the only one that does this, and most likely because the axle makers only offer a fixed set of rated axles to choose from.
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Old 01-18-2015, 09:56 AM   #14
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JRTJH -
Ahhh - the pea is under the GVW shell! Now, which of the three shells is that? They are all unmarked so it might be the one on the left......OR.... the middle one .....OR is it the one on the right?

I think it's the one on the .............

Have a good day y'all.
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Old 01-18-2015, 09:59 AM   #15
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Thanks, Chuck. Hopefully it will help others understand the process.

Where it becomes very "sticky" and "almost unmanageable" for me is when the manufacturer derates axles on a travel trailer and sets the values at or very close to the GVW.

As an example, let's use a travel trailer with a GVW of 8000 pounds. The manufacturer establishes the tongue weight at 1000 pounds and puts two 3500 pound axles under the chassis. It all "adds up" when they build the trailer and shift components around during assembly so the balance is right..... 1000 on the tongue/7000 on the axles.

Now, hitch that trailer to a truck with a weight distribution hitch and load it to the GVW. about 20% of the tongue weight will be shifted forward to the truck, and about 20% will be shifted back to the trailer axles.... IF (for explanation purposes only) the axles are "already loaded at their max of 7000 pounds, what happens to the "other 20% of the tongue weight? That's about 200 pounds of "shifted weight".... Does it "overload the axles"? or ????

That's when the owner really needs to be paying close attention at the CAT scales and fully understanding what his rig weighs. Maybe 200 pounds isn't a "deal breaker" in every situation, but if an owner is towing with empty fresh water tanks to "meet his GVW and stay within his tow vehicle ratings, and then has to come home with full gray/black tanks, what is he really "risking" when he puts that much weight on the axles and then adds even more when he cranks down on his hitch ?????

All of this is why I try to emphasize the importance of knowing what your rig weighs, how you load it, what may happen when on the road to affect loading and towing and how to adjust appropriately. It's a lot more complicated than just having a hitch rated at 1200 pounds, a tongue that is "supposed to weigh" 1000 pounds and staying under the GVW of 8000 pounds.

In aviation, we call it "keeping your head OUT of the cockpit"......
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Old 01-18-2015, 04:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Festus,

Since I "stepped into this pile of poo" a couple of posts ago, maybe I can "sort of" explain the "location of the pea"....

It's under the GVW shell.

As I interpret it, the manufacturer (Keystone) sets the GVW for the trailer, then starts assembling components that "meet or exceed" that GVW. Let's assume the GVW is established at 10,000 pounds. First, the frame/chassis must be rated at least that high.

The manufacturer "can" (but sometimes doesn't) deduct a portion of that GVW that is to be carried on the tongue/pin. Let's say 1000 pounds. That leaves, in this case, 9000 pounds to be supported by the axles.

Let's assume that axles are available in ratings of 3500, 4400, 5000 and 7000 pounds. Clearly, the first two would not support 9000 pounds, so the minimum axle the manufacturer could put under the trailer is the 5000 pound axle. That leaves a "gap" of excess rating.

Now, the axles, at full capacity, require a tire that is rated at a minimum of 2500 pounds each. Let's say, 225 75R15 LRD (rated at 2700 lb). So the manufacturer can install tires that cost $100 each and have an "excess rating" or can install smaller tires that still support the required 4500 pounds per axle or 2250 per tire. So, the manufacturer can reasonably install 205 75R15 LRC tires (rated at 2300). If the "lighter rated tire" costs $75 each, the manufacturer can see a profit of $100 per trailer by installing the smaller rated tires, still meet the "under-rated axle" requirement and also conform to the information on the Certification label as well as meet the DOT requirements. The manufacturer simply "de-rates" the axle rating to meet the new tire capacity. As long as the "tongue/pin" added to the axle/tire capacity all meet or exceed the total GVW, the math works. Assuming the manufacturer left the axles at their "full capacity" then the lighter tires could not be used because they would not meet the total 5000 pound axle capacity. With the de-rated axle clearly listed on the Certification label, the manufacturer can install the lighter tires and still conform to the DOT requirement. As stated, the manufacturer (Keystone) is responsible for certifying that all components meet the "MINIMUM" requirement and is also responsible for listing those "MINIMUM" requirements on the Certification label.

I completely agree, this "magic" doesn't bode well for the owner who is trying to add and subtract to get things to match, especially when looking at the individual component ratings. But in this situation, the manufacturer "de-rated" the axles to conform to the total GVW by installing cheaper tires and under-rating the axles while still exceeding the GVW rating when adding things together.

Not simple to explain and certainly difficult to understand, but it's all about the "final GVW"..... That's where the "pea must be hidden"......

I hope this "kinda helps"
Good post....you found the pea...

CW
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Old 01-18-2015, 05:17 PM   #17
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We see it in posts all the time. Owners that are unhappy with things about their trailer that they just didn't think about before signing on the dotted line.

It's a "buyer beware" market. In this NHTSA Q&A reference, item #8 sums it up for us. The trailer builder can build a trailer to it's specs and pass all the minimum requirements check-off blocks.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/impo...ges/page4.html

CW
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