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Old 05-22-2022, 03:30 PM   #1
LZimm
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MSRP vs. out the door(OTD)

Looking at a new Keystone Cougar Half-ton 30BHS and wondering what i could negotiate as a final OTD number? A number of local dealers are at $52K and some further out from me are at $49K. Do I have room to negotiate? Anyone with similar experience? Dealer is Camping World.
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Old 05-22-2022, 03:39 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by LZimm View Post
Looking at a new Keystone Cougar Half-ton 30BHS and wondering what i could negotiate as a final OTD number? A number of local dealers are at $52K and some further out from me are at $49K. Do I have room to negotiate? Anyone with similar experience? Dealer is Camping World.
Look at the model on RVTrader.com. Range is about $52K to $72K for the same trailer. Obviously dealers are in a position to leverage the most bucks out of folks. If you have never owned a camper, you might consider a used camper and get it professionally inspected before purchase by a certified pro and see if you really happy enough with the RV lifestyle to shell out those bucks for a new one. You will also discover what things you dislike about the camper and which you would like to improve on and if you do decide to shell out $52K to $72K it will be on a camper where things are really as you would like them based on experience.

I have an old 2002 Cougar fifth wheel and have had almost none of the issues a lot of the new owners complain about. I am not keep for the gadgets that come with new camper ownership so that is just me but I can pretty much fix what I need to and don't have to rely on a factory trained tech to fix my electronic gizmo.
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Old 05-22-2022, 04:02 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by LZimm View Post
Looking at a new Keystone Cougar Half-ton 30BHS and wondering what i could negotiate as a final OTD number? A number of local dealers are at $52K and some further out from me are at $49K. Do I have room to negotiate? Anyone with similar experience? Dealer is Camping World.
That's an impossible ask. There's so much volatility in the market and not knowing the dealers position or your resources and negotiating skills are all factors. While one person may have cash while another may struggle to get a suitable down payment. My advice is to set your price in your mind and go talk to the dealer. The worst that can happen is you don't reach your goal. It doesn't hurt to ask but be prepared for the reality of the current seller's market and inflated prices.
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Old 05-23-2022, 06:29 AM   #4
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Again, hard to say. There are so many different factors that come into play with dealers. The further away from IN they are, the more they pay for transporting. Figure it’s costing them over $3 per mile these days. Some dealers charge “extra” for some items, while others burry them into the price and say it’s “included”. Some will try to suck you in with an “allowance” to go on a shopping spree in the parts department. Bottom line, when you’re comparing prices between dealers, make sure you’re getting the EXACT same deal
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:30 AM   #5
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Can't help with pricing, but a FYI that 1/2 ton towable is a sales gimmick, most ARE NOT within the payload limits of a 1/2 truck. May want to post the weights from all the tags on YOUR trucks drivers door jamb to verify your good go tow that rv.
That's a 34.5' - 9400lb GVWR TT with approximately 1200lb tongue weight + being a bunkhouse I assume there's multiple people in the truck that their weight also comes directly off of the available payload + 100lbs for the mandatory WDH.
Another consideration is warranty. Rv dealers ARE NOT obligated to do any warranty work on any rv they did not sell, so the farther away you buy may not be cheaper in the long run if you have to haul it back several hundred miles for warranty that 1st year.
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Old 05-23-2022, 10:37 AM   #6
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As Danny mentioned above your tow vehicle will be important when choosing a trailer that size. The "1/2 ton" designation is a sales gimmick that gets folks in trouble because they weigh too much for a 1/2 ton. If you share the tow vehicle information, including the placards inside the driver door showing gvwr, payload etc. we can help you determine where you sit in the equation. That is a 9500lb. gvwr trailer.
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Old 05-23-2022, 04:12 PM   #7
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Thank you all, this is great information. I do have some concern on the weight. I am coming from a Jayco Jayfeather X23B which tows very well with my setup. My TV is a 2021 Ford F-150 w/max-tow package, but no heavy duty payload package. Per the placards and the 2021 Ford specs I have as follows:
GVWR: 7,150 lbs
Max CCC/Paylod: 1,879 lbs
Curb weight: 5,271
Gearing: 3.55
GCWR: 19,400 lbs
Equalizer hitch (10K)



Trailer (advertised) specs:
GVWR: 9,524 lbs
Dry weight: 7,160 lbs
Max CCC/Payload: 2,364 lbs
Tongue Weight: 790 lbs


Truck Passengers: 620 lbs
WDH: 100 lbs


By my calculations I should have 369 pounds of available payload in the truck (based on advertised hitch weight). Does this sound right and if I'm in the specs am I still setting myself up for failure??
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Old 05-23-2022, 04:29 PM   #8
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As someone that previously had a 23b and towed with a similarly equipped F150 (I actually had a bit more payload) I can give you an accurate response. For the last few years we towed our current trailer (about 2,000 lbs lighter than yours), and it was only possible with several thousand dollars of upgrades to the truck (E-rated tires, Timbrens, Helwig rear sway bar, high performance shocks, and upgraded tires on the trailer) just to make it marginal. We have since upgraded to a more capable F250. Our 240BH has a publish tongue weight of 551 lbs. In reality, even when loaded with caution, our scale-verified tongue weight is 925 lbs.

A good rule of thumb that will get you close to realistic tongue weight is 13% of the trailer GVWR which is about 1,240 lbs. Personally and from experience, that is too much trailer for that truck.
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Old 05-23-2022, 04:44 PM   #9
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The trailer sleeps 11 so have to assume kids, maybe several, in weight calculations. First, trailer pricing;

The Keystone website gives their suggested msrp for the trailer as 62,065. I always go in with an anticipation of a msrp reduction of 33%. That has gotten more difficult the last couple of trailer but I can get real close. The current volatile world we live in will probably have those prices skewed in some fashion. From the msrp of 62k +/- I figure if you can pull it down to 49k you've probably done as well as you can but I would drive at them from the 45k mark. Make sure the trailer has everything you want on/in it. BUT -

The trailer will be as much, and probably more, than your truck can safely handle. A 1/2 ton, with a 3.55 axle (non towing ratio) trying to pull, and carry safely, a 9500lb trailer is a tall order.

Take the gvwr of the trailer - 9500lbs. Tongue weight will be approx. 13% of the loaded trlr. weight or 1235lbs. at gvw. You cannot use the website tongue weight; that is for an empty trailer....emptier than what it was when you picked it up. You show 620 lbs. for passengers. Are they kids? If so they don't stop growing. For realism let's say 700lbs. 1235 + 700 kids + 100 hitch = 2035lbs. You will have kids with you; kids will take toys, you will want camping gear, tools, bbq grills, propane tanks, kayaks, canoes, fishing gear, etc. etc. (not all of them); much of that will be in the bed of the truck. Let's say 200lbs. Now we're at 2235lbs vs a very optimistic payload of 1879. Why optimistic? With a 1/2 ton and that size trailer you will need to replace the tires with LT tires, add HD shocks, air bags etc. to keep it from getting away from you and on the road - btdt. All those are deducted from your payload; let's add another 100 = 2335 vs that 1879.

With the above calculations you can see you will run over your payload. I stated that and not as a question because the gear, and toys, the kids want will not get lighter...they get heavier...and more of them. Then mom and dad will want to have fun too so....

The "1/2 ton towable" moniker should be abolished. All it does is get folks into dangerous situations and they don't even know it. Same goes for the hyped claims for 1/2 ton trucks (owned lots of them). Proceed very cautiously. I would encourage looking at a lighter, smaller trailer with that truck.
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Old 05-24-2022, 06:30 AM   #10
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As others have said, you will add gear to the bed of the truck. One of the complaints/concerns travel trailer owners always bring up when considering switching to a 5th wheel is that they’ll lose their bed space for their gear. I don’t see that as a real concern because 5th wheels have so much more storage space, you don’t need the bed space. However, I understand their concern. Almost every time I see someone pull in with a travel trailer, the. Ed if the truck is packed to the hills with gear.

Every time I sold a trailer to someone with a half ton or an SUV, I told them they’ll be making a bunch of mods to make it work well for them, starting with tires, getting rid of the P and switching to LT. I always told them the same thing, you can probably make a bunch of mods and make it work, but you’d be much better off with a 3/4 ton. Most of them still purchased the trailer, peoples wants always outweigh their needs, but many stopped in a couple months later to show me their new truck.
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Old 05-24-2022, 08:20 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by LZimm View Post
Thank you all, this is great information. I do have some concern on the weight. I am coming from a Jayco Jayfeather X23B which tows very well with my setup. My TV is a 2021 Ford F-150 w/max-tow package, but no heavy duty payload package. Per the placards and the 2021 Ford specs I have as follows:
GVWR: 7,150 lbs
Max CCC/Paylod: 1,879 lbs
Curb weight: 5,271
Gearing: 3.55
GCWR: 19,400 lbs
Equalizer hitch (10K)



Trailer (advertised) specs:
GVWR: 9,524 lbs
Dry weight: 7,160 lbs
Max CCC/Payload: 2,364 lbs
Tongue Weight: 790 lbs


Truck Passengers: 620 lbs
WDH: 100 lbs


By my calculations I should have 369 pounds of available payload in the truck (based on advertised hitch weight). Does this sound right and if I'm in the specs am I still setting myself up for failure??
Assuming with the bunkhouse you've got several included in the camping trip riding in the truck with all their must haves along.
From that 1879 lb payload subtract 1200 lbs for pin weight,, the brochure weight is a non existent number used from the rv dry weight, + the 720 lbs for peope & hitch you stated, your at 1920 lbs without adding the change in the ashtray or the drinks in the cup holders or all those "must have" travel goodies for the young'uns.
If you want the real numbers load everyone/everything into the truck as if you're going camping for the weekend & head to scales, get the total truck weight then subtract that weight from the 7150 GVWR of your truck, that difference is your actual payload, it may be less than the posted payload.
For any TT use 13% of the GVWR (23% for a 5th wheel pin weight) posted on drivers front corner for a real world tongue weight estimate, the brochures are ALWAYS 10% or less of the advertised dry weight. The dry/shipping weight is as it rolled out the factory door, no liquids, no propane, no batteries & no dealer added options, you, nor anyone else will ever tow it near that dry weight once it's reached the selling dealer.
If by chance you start looking at trading trucks, skip the 3/4 ton some with diesels have very little more payload than your 1/2 ton. Go to a SRW 1 ton fora significant increase in payload for very little $$ difference, everything else such as ride, mpg & size will be the same & you'll already be prepared for a bigger rv when the kiddos get bigger.
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Old 05-29-2022, 12:19 PM   #12
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DONT BUY FROM CAMPING WORLD!!!!!!! Neighbor bought last year, Saved $6,000 @ Zoomers RV vs. same unit @ CW.
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Old 05-29-2022, 01:06 PM   #13
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DONT BUY FROM CAMPING WORLD!!!!!!! Neighbor bought last year, Saved $6,000 @ Zoomers RV vs. same unit @ CW.

That's an overly broad statement. Camping World does in fact have some of the best pricing on a given RV at a given time in a given place. Many variables at play as well. How long has the unit been on the lot, how many times has it been walked thru, is the equipment exactly the same; those and many others come into play. On top of that every CW is individually managed and they develop their own pricing so one CW really has nothing to do with another in that respect. In your case your neighbor got a better price at the dealer you posted than he could negotiate at that particular CW.
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Old 05-29-2022, 03:39 PM   #14
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You're best deal is to shop the service department at any rv dealer rather than the sales.
Once you've cleared the end of the lots driveway towing off into the sunset with your new rv that salesperson has already forgotten your name & headed to the bank with his commission.
You WILL however be back to the service department for warranty issues, how WILL they treat you? As already mentioned rv service departments ARE NOT like vehicle service, they aren't in any way obligated to work on ANY rv they did not sell! If you find one that will agree to take care of you be prepared for your rv to always be at the end of the line behind those that were sold by that dealer.
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Old 05-29-2022, 03:53 PM   #15
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You're best deal is to shop the service department at any rv dealer rather than the sales.
Once you've cleared the end of the lots driveway towing off into the sunset with your new rv that salesperson has already forgotten your name & headed to the bank with his commission.
You WILL however be back to the service department for warranty issues, how WILL they treat you? As already mentioned rv service departments ARE NOT like vehicle service, they aren't in any way obligated to work on ANY rv they did not sell! If you find one that will agree to take care of you be prepared for your rv to always be at the end of the line behind those that were sold by that dealer.
Right in most cases. I gave my cell to every customer I had and told them to call me before the service department. I figured I could save them a lot of headache if it was something simple. Many problems people have with new RVs are operator error or a very simple fix that’s easier to do yourself than bringing the trailer into service. But I know a lot of salesman who can’t even spell RV let alone help you with a problem
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Old 05-29-2022, 04:31 PM   #16
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You're best deal is to shop the service department at any rv dealer rather than the sales.
Once you've cleared the end of the lots driveway towing off into the sunset with your new rv that salesperson has already forgotten your name & headed to the bank with his commission.
You WILL however be back to the service department for warranty issues, how WILL they treat you? As already mentioned rv service departments ARE NOT like vehicle service, they aren't in any way obligated to work on ANY rv they did not sell! If you find one that will agree to take care of you be prepared for your rv to always be at the end of the line behind those that were sold by that dealer.

You would be right. The salesman that is going to run point for you after the sale is EXTREMELY rare; I won't say non existent but extremely rare. They may give a cursory email to a service advisor in the service dept. but that's about it at the most. I have been to several dealerships where the service dept. held the "salesmen" in low regard. There is a lot of churn in sales folks, most know nothing and want to impress....but can't. That kind of help with a problem is not what I want or expect.
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Old 05-29-2022, 05:02 PM   #17
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You would be right. The salesman that is going to run point for you after the sale is EXTREMELY rare; I won't say non existent but extremely rare. They may give a cursory email to a service advisor in the service dept. but that's about it at the most. I have been to several dealerships where the service dept. held the "salesmen" in low regard. There is a lot of churn in sales folks, most know nothing and want to impress....but can't. That kind of help with a problem is not what I want or expect.
Agree, most don’t know and only cause more problems. I’ve actually called the factory reps when a warranty repair was denied and got it approved. Sometimes the service advisors asked me to help out. The service department and I had mixed feelings. Sometimes we got along great, other times they wished I didn’t get involved. The techs actually wanted me to apply for the service manager job when it was open. I was the only one who would go to these lengths, but I’m also the only one there who understood both sides and worried about the customer after the sale. I was also the only salesman who owned an RV.
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