Pay Load vs Towing Capacity

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Much easier to just open the driver's door!
That will give you payload, axle weights & GVWR!
If for some reason, other than bragging "mines bigger" like the manufacturer, you could enter your vin# & get the max tow weight which means nothing in the real rv towing world.

Well max tow rating, should tell you how your TV will preform with the load you plan on putting on it.

Our 2016 Ram has max towing from the web site of 25,024#, I currently am towing about 13,000# so a little over half of the rating. yes it tows great, almost like the 5er isn't there.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Much easier to just open the driver's door!
That will give you payload, axle weights & GVWR!
If for some reason, other than bragging "mines bigger" like the manufacturer, you could enter your vin# & get the max tow weight which means nothing in the real rv towing world.

Agreed. Seems like these days some folks can't beleive what they see in "the real world" but are willing to beleive everything from the "digital" world.

Being an old audio file I remember when the amplifier output ratings wars were raging. The "true power rating" would be in watts with a load of 4 ohms and 8 ohms @x%THD (the amount of distortion) per channel with all channels driven. Some marketing companies knew folks that weren't knowledgeable would be confused and only "see" the final power number (a lot like looking at max towing capacity).

So the average Joe would see an amplifier rated for 600 watts and not read how that was derived. Often that rating was "peak envelope" power with 1 channel driven at 2 ohms with 10% distortion. Translation? That power rating was derived by turning the volume wide open into a speaker that offered very little load with basically no regard for how it sounds. The "true" power was like 5 to 10 watts. But that Amp sold for a fraction of the cost of a quality unit and typically failed easily. The Feds stepped in and regulated that to some extent in an attempt at leveling the playing field.

Today it's the p/u truck industry doing the same thing. At first it was the horse power wars. Max hp would be touted and gas engines had jp and torque ratings approaching that of the diesels of the time. The difference was where in the powerband that hp & torque was achieved. Gas engine powerbands were high (near the max rpm) so to achieve the ratings the engines were screaming at high rpm under high loads, a recipe for premature wear and failure.

The desire power band was at a low rpm and relatively flat to max rpm. Translation? The diesel power was high where you need it, at low rpm when starting from a stop, or when calling for power pulling a grade while not constantly downshifting to "hunt" for the engines power band.

Now it's the "my truck can pull xxx lbs!" when the rating is useless. Again, the folks without the knowledge look at the big numbers with the lower price tag and BINGO! They go home with the 1/2 ton truck that's "rated" to pull a lot of weight and has a lot of hp. I live in close proximity to 2 RV dealerships and every spring I see these folks driving away from the dealership, tail dragging, engine screaming, with a big fat grin on their face.

So while SAE J2807 may be a step in the right direction it's still several steps away from being an "honest comparative tool" for the RV towing industry. Looks to me like it's targeted for for the contractor or fleet manager looking to pull flat beds with a small back hoe or Bobcat or cement mixer and not a heavy pin wt or hitch wt camper.

JMHO

[Ribtip]

Everyone has a different way of looking and checking and figuring things out. No one is wrong here.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Ribtip

Everyone has a different way of looking and checking and figuring things out. No one is wrong here.

I disagree. We've had some people tell someone that it's OK to tow over gvw, over payload, and over gawr. That's wrong no matter "how you look atnit".

[nellie1289]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Much easier to just open the driver's door!
That will give you payload, axle weights & GVWR!
If for some reason, other than bragging "mines bigger" like the manufacturer, you could enter your vin# & get the max tow weight which means nothing in the real rv towing world.

How can you say max towing doesn’t matter. My truck has plenty of payload, 4200 lbs. but not enough max towing for some of the huge toy haulers out there. I can take the biggest trailers made on payload but some of these trailers are 20k plus. My max towing is 17,000.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

How can you say max towing doesn’t matter. My truck has plenty of payload, 4200 lbs. but not enough max towing for some of the huge toy haulers out there. I can take the biggest trailers made on payload but some of these trailers are 20k plus. My max towing is 17,000.

Frankly a sticker payload of 4200 pounds couldn't carry my 15,000 GVWR 5th wheel fully loaded. If you had much in the truck besides you and a 12 pack.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

How can you say max towing doesn’t matter. My truck has plenty of payload, 4200 lbs. but not enough max towing for some of the huge toy haulers out there. I can take the biggest trailers made on payload but some of these trailers are 20k plus. My max towing is 17,000.

Max towing doesn't matter in most cases; when you get to the 1 tons, drw etc. it might but generally with the drw. In your case I wouldn't strap a 17k, 38-40' anything on the back of a srw truck - just ain't enough beef there, so that max payload "shouldn't" be in the equation IMO.

In the smaller trucks through 3/4 tons the max tow doesn't mean anything at all because payloads are going to run short. Max tow ratings are the manufacturers advertising "playground" to play on the uninformed. When you get to 1 tons, drw etc. payloads can rise drastically....but, then reality sets in - just HOW big of a trailer should a thinking person put on the back of a 8500 -9000lb. truck? It's pretty simple; if you max out on tow rating with a 1 ton srw truck you'll have a 17-20k behmoth, 38-40' wind sail (and lead weight) pushing that, now, little truck. So we're back to the "max tow" ratings don't really matter....many other things to think about instead. JMO/YMMV

[notanlines]

Nellie, your TV can’t take any of the loaded MobileSuites, and very few of the Redwoods I’m familiar with. There are literally dozens of large RV’s your 4200 cargo capacity won’t tote the load. It’s not quite the beast you’ve been leadto believe.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

How can you say max towing doesn’t matter. My truck has plenty of payload, 4200 lbs. but not enough max towing for some of the huge toy haulers out there. I can take the biggest trailers made on payload but some of these trailers are 20k plus. My max towing is 17,000.
_________________________
2014 Ram 3500 Cummins, Limited, Longbed, CC. Every option but the Aisin.

Well I will add to what Javi and others have stated you have less than minimal payload for a large TH. Your 4,200# payload means you might be able to carry a max pin of 3,700# if you only have a driver and passenger. We carry a pin of 2,800# on a 32' 5er that weighs about 13,000#. We have an in bed tool box, and that, us and the hitch we lost 1,411# of payload before hooking that 2,800# pin. well 2,800 + 1,411 = 4,211# this is why we bought a 3500 DRW with HO and Aisin and 3.73's.

You have a fancy 3500 SRW with a standard CTD and 68RFE and likely 3.42's for rear gears.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

How can you say max towing doesn’t matter. My truck has plenty of payload, 4200 lbs. but not enough max towing for some of the huge toy haulers out there. I can take the biggest trailers made on payload but some of these trailers are 20k plus. My max towing is 17,000.

For the 17k max tow weight of your truck that will be right at or over your max payload (4200) with nothing in/on your truck other than the pin weight (4250lbs @ 25%), which is exactly how we can say the max tow weight means nothing in the rv world. With most any of the big 3 trucks you'll exceed the posted payload long before you will tow it's max tow weight hauling a 5th wheel. This is where a lot of folks get themselves in a bind, not looking at the payload & believing the overly inflated max tow numbers.
I would NEVER attempt to tow a 17k 5th wheel with a SRW truck regardless of it's advertised max tow weight, anyone attempting to tow a 20k TH with one is asking for trouble.

[nellie1289]

Still not sure how I’m getting chastised for saying 4200 is a lot of payload but still doesn’t result in being able to pull one of the Giant toy haulers at 20k lbs with my max towing limit at 17000. For the record me and the wife combine at 350 lbs and therefore I figure i have 3900 payload then minus 150 for the hitch. We literally never have anything in the bed but a tote with the sewer pipe. Everything else is in trailer.

Now that being said, it’s funny how engineers at ram say 17000 is approved yet the payload police on the internet want to say you can’t /shouldn’t. Even though these trucks go through massive testing for liability and warranty reasons. I always stay within the safety ratings of my pickup. I don’t see how that is unreasonable. And the transmission i am sporting has nothing to do with the safety of the load. Not sure how that’s relevant. What’s also interesting is how they always increase the capacity weights of these rigs as the model years age. I am positive a 2018 identically configured truck as mine is higher on the max tow rating with no chassis or suspension upgrades. I didn’t look this up specifically but the manufacturers do this all the time. It tells you the manufacturers probably build in cushion for models ln for future years. I’m never going over my limits but wouldn’t hesitate for a second going to the max allowed. Safe travels everyone.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

Still not sure how I’m getting chastised for saying 4200 is a lot of payload but still doesn’t result in being able to pull one of the Giant toy haulers at 20k lbs with my max towing limit at 17000. For the record me and the wife combine at 350 lbs and therefore I figure i have 3900 payload then minus 150 for the hitch. We literally never have anything in the bed but a tote with the sewer pipe. Everything else is in trailer.

Now that being said, it’s funny how engineers at ram say 17000 is approved yet the payload police on the internet want to say you can’t /shouldn’t. Even though these trucks go through massive testing for liability and warranty reasons. I always stay within the safety ratings of my pickup. I don’t see how that is unreasonable. And the transmission i am sporting has nothing to do with the safety of the load. Not sure how that’s relevant. What’s also interesting is how they always increase the capacity weights of these rigs as the model years age. I am positive a 2018 identically configured truck as mine is higher on the max tow rating with no chassis or suspension upgrades. I didn’t look this up specifically but the manufacturers do this all the time. It tells you the manufacturers probably build in cushion for models ln for future years. I’m never going over my limits but wouldn’t hesitate for a second going to the max allowed. Safe travels everyone.

Well not chastising, but just being realistic, what I see as your issue is you have a very comfortable TV with a standard output CTD with a 68RFE transmission and 3.42 gears. Max towing is not really a hard number, but a capacity based on the power train, power, strength, and gear ratio. The listed GCWR may be a weight that a hungry lawyer might chase if your have exceeded it.
Hook up a triple axle TH at 20,000# and 17% pin weight of 3,400# and you will not be happy with acceleration and hill climbing. In addition you will need to increase the interval of service on your 68RFE.

With reasonable driving, you can likely get 20+ mpg on the highway empty, our 2016 DRW HO, aisin, and 3.73 can get close to19 mpg empty, but I am happy with 17+.

One last thing, is get your truck ready to tow and head for the scales with DW and full fuel tank and see what your truck really weighs.

[nellie1289]

I have weighed it with me and full fuel and dw and the hitch It leaves me 3700-3750 as stated above based on how many cheeseburgers I have had recently. I have rolled the scales multiple times in the six years I have had. I’m not sure how much power you guys think you need. With 13000 lbs in tow on old 5er I pull every grade around here zero problems and usually have to lift even in the biggest slopes of the cascades. Only 35000 miles on my truck in six years. My biggest service interval problem is I don’t need service often enough. I’m usually Doing it way before I need it based on expired time alone.

[notanlines]

We are not chastising, just being realistic with your load capacity. I am not interested in the number relating to max tow, just load capacity.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

Still not sure how I’m getting chastised for saying 4200 is a lot of payload but still doesn’t result in being able to pull one of the Giant toy haulers at 20k lbs with my max towing limit at 17000. For the record me and the wife combine at 350 lbs and therefore I figure i have 3900 payload then minus 150 for the hitch. We literally never have anything in the bed but a tote with the sewer pipe. Everything else is in trailer.

WORD OF CAUTION! When mentioning body weights that include your beloved wife (or dear wife aka DW), NEVER NEVER let your DW look at what you wrote. These weights can be a touchy subject and it will take weeks, if not months for you to get out of the dog house. Last, arguing about hypothetical weights; payload and max towing can be pretty much run its course.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by nellie1289

Still not sure how I’m getting chastised for saying 4200 is a lot of payload but still doesn’t result in being able to pull one of the Giant toy haulers at 20k lbs with my max towing limit at 17000. For the record me and the wife combine at 350 lbs and therefore I figure i have 3900 payload then minus 150 for the hitch. We literally never have anything in the bed but a tote with the sewer pipe. Everything else is in trailer.

Now that being said, it’s funny how engineers at ram say 17000 is approved yet the payload police on the internet want to say you can’t /shouldn’t. Even though these trucks go through massive testing for liability and warranty reasons. I always stay within the safety ratings of my pickup. I don’t see how that is unreasonable. And the transmission i am sporting has nothing to do with the safety of the load. Not sure how that’s relevant. What’s also interesting is how they always increase the capacity weights of these rigs as the model years age. I am positive a 2018 identically configured truck as mine is higher on the max tow rating with no chassis or suspension upgrades. I didn’t look this up specifically but the manufacturers do this all the time. It tells you the manufacturers probably build in cushion for models ln for future years. I’m never going over my limits but wouldn’t hesitate for a second going to the max allowed. Safe travels everyone.

I know this has been beat to death but just wanted to hopefully clear up the red statement above. Load carrying in just that CARRYING a load. Tow rating is as described, TOWING or pulling a load.

Think of it this way. Put 300 lbs, of people in a wagon and pull it. Then put a 100 lb. person on your back and 200 lb in the wagon. See which example is the easier?

As for tow ratings, the drive train has everything to do with that rating. Your truck with a 200 hp motor with 150 ft lbs of torque and a set of 3.73 gears will not be as capable as your truck with a 350 hp 300 ft lb motor with a gear ratio of 4:10. It's simple mechanical physics.

Yes every year the manufacturers increase the ratings but typically you can tell why if you look closely. A small increase can usually be attributed to weight reduction. The use of more aluminum, more plastic, etc.The large increases in capacity are usually attributed to increase in engine performance (either in power band or total hp & torque) and the changes in transmissions (either in number of gears, gear ratio spreads between gears, shift patterns, final drive ratios, torque converter efficiency, clutch materials, etc.). I don't think the manufacturers are "eating into the safety margins".

Staying within the limits set by the manufacturer as you state you practice is the only reasonable thing to do.

[Ribtip]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

WORD OF CAUTION! When mentioning body weights that include your beloved wife (or dear wife aka DW), NEVER NEVER let your DW look at what you wrote. These weights can be a touchy subject and it will take weeks, if not months for you to get out of the dog house. Last, arguing about hypothetical weights; payload and max towing can be pretty much run its course.

Amen brother.

[Ribtip]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I know this has been beat to death but just wanted to hopefully clear up the red statement above. Load carrying in just that CARRYING a load. Tow rating is as described, TOWING or pulling a load.

Think of it this way. Put 300 lbs, of people in a wagon and pull it. Then put a 100 lb. person on your back and 200 lb in the wagon. See which example is the easier?

As for tow ratings, the drive train has everything to do with that rating. Your truck with a 200 hp motor with 150 ft lbs of torque and a set of 3.73 gears will not be as capable as your truck with a 350 hp 300 ft lb motor with a gear ratio of 4:10. It's simple mechanical physics.

Yes every year the manufacturers increase the ratings but typically you can tell why if you look closely. A small increase can usually be attributed to weight reduction. The use of more aluminum, more plastic, etc.The large increases in capacity are usually attributed to increase in engine performance (either in power band or total hp & torque) and the changes in transmissions (either in number of gears, gear ratio spreads between gears, shift patterns, final drive ratios, torque converter efficiency, clutch materials, etc.). I don't think the manufacturers are "eating into the safety margins".

Staying within the limits set by the manufacturer as you state you practice is the only reasonable thing to do.

As long as that 100# person is within my bodys payload specs it shouldn't be a problem. By the way it's not within my specs

[travelin texans]

I've noticed/read that recently at least one truck manufacturer is listing payloads for conventional trailers & goosenecks (which BTW are extremely light for RVs) on the drivers door jamb, not TTs or 5th wheels. That's because their testing for both was with utility type "conventional" & "gooseneck" trailers loaded with blocks or construction equipment directly over the axles or otherwise adjusted to keep the weight minimal on the truck, as evidenced by the light payloads they've listed. With a rv you are not able to load all the weight directly over the axles & unable the move the load to reduce the tongue/hitch weights.
With a TT your tongue weight should be calculated from the posted GVWR of your particular rv, pay no attention to the dry weight, somewhere between 12-15% of that weight. For a 5th wheel somewhere between 20-25% of the GVWR of a particular 5th wheel. These weight percentages are then subtracted from the payload listed on the drivers door of your particular truck, not from numbers from brochures, advertising, or ANYTHING a dealer may tell you, along with everyone/everything in/on your truck that didn't come from the factory. You WILL exceed the payload of your truck LONG before you'll tow the max weight published towing a rv.

[JRTJH]

If you think about it, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) needs to remain "viable in the public eye" if they are to remain relevant in the automotive manufacturing process....

When they were "selling the SAE J2807 standards to Ford, Chrysler and GM, I would suspect there was some "significant negotiations behind the scenes" to get the "big three" to buy into using the SAE standard to "certify towing capacities"... NONE of the automobile manufacturers wants to give their competition an edge so they all are extremely protective of their test procedures that give them an advantage over the other auto makers.

No doubt, the negotiations included "low tongue weights for trailers" so all the manufacturers could continue using current charts as well as not having to "redesign vehicles to meet new standards....

Now, as I've said many times, towing a 5 ton flatbed cargo trailer with a tractor on it is SIGNIFICANTLY different from towing a 5 ton travel trailer....

Anyone who thinks about the SAE process and the values they use for tongue/pin weight will immediately realize that their RV isn't even close to those "stipulations".... Just as anyone who has ever towed a farm tractor on a flatbed knows that crosswinds, 18 wheeler "bow wake" and the resulting push/pull doesn't affect that trailer with a tractor the same way it does their 35' travel trailer with the 225 square foot flat sidewall....

Just look at the photos below. Do you really believe that both rigs will react to highway conditions "the same way" ????? There's SIGNIFICANTLY more to towing 5 tons than just how much the trailer weighs behind the tow vehicle.....