Question about vehicle max towing capacity.

danvanvb · 12-17-2020, 11:05 AM

Greetings. My wife and I are THINKING of upgrading to a 5th wheel. We currently have a 2016 Passport 31RE and a 2021 F-250 7.3 TT with a GCWR of 21,800# and a max towing of 14,700#.

My question is what is the maximum GVWR 5th wheel would you purchase? Most trailers with a UVW of 12,500# seem to be about 15,000# GVWR. Am I pushing it at this weight or am I figuring about right for the TT?

notanlines · 12-17-2020, 11:22 AM

No, your 3/4 ton is not made to HAUL that much weight. I don’t want to start another 4 page argument with those who think their 3/4 ton will do it all nor those who think an F450 is required to tow an Rpod. Search this site and the arguments go on forever.
Any reason you bought the truck before the RV? The RV is always the deciding factor in what truck you buy. And your gasser is better suited to an RV less than 12K, preferably closer to 10K.

**flybouy** · 12-17-2020, 11:22 AM

Max tow ratings are useless when talking about campers. That number is based on a truck towing a flatbed trailer where the center of gravity is low and the weight on the trailer is centered over the trailer axle so there's not much weight being transferred down on the truck. Think of a trailer loaded with logs or a small tractor on it.

The payload number of the truck is the number you want to pay attention to. Take the GVW of the trailer then multiply that by 10-15% for tongue weight on a travel trailer or 20-=25% for pin weight of a 5 th wheel. Add to that number the weight of the hitch and that's the weight the truck payload must accommodate PLUS the weight of everything else that you put in or add to the truck like people, pets,food, drinks, tools, bed liner, brush bar, floor mats, change in the cup holder and all the stuff in the center console and glove box.

The truck typically will run out of payload ar rear axle weight capacity long before you get to the max towing number.

Javi · 12-17-2020, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

Greetings. My wife and I are THINKING of upgrading to a 5th wheel. We currently have a 2016 Passport 31RE and a 2021 F-250 7.3 TT with a GCWR of 21,800# and a max towing of 14,700#.

My question is what is the maximum GVWR 5th wheel would you purchase? Most trailers with a UVW of 12,500# seem to be about 15,000# GVWR. Am I pushing it at this weight or am I figuring about right for the TT?

The MAX towing rating is how much the truck can pull and stop... it has nothing to do with how MUCH it can carry.. When talking about Max Towing.. think about a trailer configured like your little red wagon when you were a kid.. two tires in the front and two tires in the back so that little to no weight is on the truck.. That's MAX TOW...

Now, to determine how much trailer you can carry.. figure 22% to 25% of the GVWR of the trailer will be on the truck. So, a 15,000 GVWR trailer is going to put approximately 3300 and up to probably 3750 pounds on the truck. We call that PIN WEIGHT

The best way to figure how much you can carry is to load the truck with everything you would normally carry for a trip, including the dog, kids, ice chests, firewood, cold drinks, maps, tools, fuel, dog food and anything else you would carry..

Then go to a CAT SCALE and weigh the truck... After doing that if you don't already have a 5th wheel hitch add another 150 pounds to the number on the scale ticket...

Now, look on the driver's side door frame of your truck and there will be a sticker that says XXXXX GVWR ... subtract the total from the bottom of the weight ticket from that number and that's how much the pin weight of your trailer can be...

Good LUCK

danvanvb · 12-17-2020, 11:38 AM

If my GVWR is 10000# (per door sticker) and the CAT weight is 6600# the delta of 3400# is the number I'm looking for? The manufacture of the 5th wheel has the hitch weight at 2315# plus the 150# for the hitch I would assume I'm good at 2465#. Don't worry about any other weights?

linux3 · 12-17-2020, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javi

Now, to determine how much trailer you can carry.. figure 22% to 25% of the GVWR of the trailer will be on the truck. So, a 15,000 GVWR trailer is going to put approximately 3300 and up to probably 3750 pounds on the truck. We call that PIN WEIGHT

We have been talking back and forth about getting a 1/2 ton towable 5th wheel in the 22 to 24' range.
If we do my plan is / was to pull it with a Silverado 2500 HD gasser. Lets not get into the 2500 vs 3500 issue. Lets not.

Anyway, based on almost nothing I figured hitch/ pin weight would be around 15% of GVW. You think 22 - 25% is a better number?

Javi · 12-17-2020, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

If my GVWR is 10000# (per door sticker) and the CAT weight is 6600# the delta of 3400# is the number I'm looking for? The manufacture of the 5th wheel has the hitch weight at 2315# plus the 150# for the hitch I would assume I'm good at 2465#. Don't worry about any other weights?

Pin weight from manufacturer is DRY PIN WEIGHT... nothing in trailer..

Take GVWR of trailer and multiply by .22 to .25 that is most like the REAL pin weight after you load the trailer for camping.

Javi · 12-17-2020, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linux3

We have been talking back and forth about getting a 1/2 ton towable 5th wheel in the 22 to 24' range.
If we do my plan is / was to pull it with a Silverado 2500 HD gasser. Lets not get into the 2500 vs 3500 issue. Lets not.

Anyway, based on almost nothing I figured hitch/ pin weight would be around 15% of GVW. You think 22 - 25% is a better number?

Loaded 5th wheel pin weight is going to be between 22% and 25% most of the time.. The manufacturers shoot for 15%-17% dry pin weight to make it seem that a 1/2 ton might be able to pull it.. the reality is 22% to 25%

Javi · 12-17-2020, 12:30 PM

You really got to stand back and look at these trailers when you're trying to figure out if you can carry them with your truck.. The manufacturers all play tricks with the numbers especially on the light weight 5th wheels..

Back off and look at where all the weight is in the trailer and then look at where all the storage is located..

For instance on my current 5th wheel, (which isn't really light weight) all the weight of furnishing and appliances is in the back 2/3's of the trailer but not any of the storage, and except for the fresh water tank

ALL of the tanks are INFRONT of the axles.. AND ALL THE STORAGE even the fridge... might be WHY my pin weight is 3600+ pounds...

My last 5th wheel the 333MKS Cougar was the same way.. 12,300 GVWR.. 3100 pin weight..

xrated · 12-17-2020, 01:05 PM

Javi is correct ^^^^. That 2315 is the empty pin weight. Most of the time that doesn't even include the propane in the tanks OR the battery. The correct way to do the calculations is to use the trailer's GVWR....whatever that number is and multiply that number times at least 20%. Depending on how the trailer was built, it could even be higher than 20%. Doing it that way gives you a "worst case scenario" number.....because the trailer should NEVER weigh more than the GVWR. Obviously, you may or may not load the trailer all the way to the GVWR, but using that number will assure you that you don't overload the truck's payload numbers IF...you do load the trailer all the way. And of course, you still have to take into account the weight of the 5ver hitch, passenger(s), anything and everything that goes in/on the truck.....truckbed toolbox, extra fuel, firewood, etc. Only you know how much of that stuff you will be taking along. Hope that helps a bit.

**flybouy** · 12-17-2020, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

If my GVWR is 10000# (per door sticker) and the CAT weight is 6600# the delta of 3400# is the number I'm looking for? The manufacture of the 5th wheel has the hitch weight at 2315# plus the 150# for the hitch I would assume I'm good at 2465#. Don't worry about any other weights?

Worry, yes. You are talking a total combined weight on the tow vehicle of both front and rear axles, as I stated in my previous post: "The truck typically will run out of payload or rear axle weight capacity long before you get to the max towing number." The weight ratings are:

Max GVW (the most the truck can weigh)
Max GCVW (the max the truck + the trailer can weigh)
Max front axle (the most weight the truck's front axle can bear)
Max rear axle (the max weight the truck's rear axle can bear)
Max payload (the max weight that you can add to the truck in any fashion)
Max towing (that's the GCVW - GVW )

So what does this mean? You should not exceed ANY of those maximum rating numbers. You may have a load that's within the payload number but exceeds the rear axle capacity. Typically, the payload number will be exceeded before any of the other numbers when towing a camping trailer.

danvanvb · 12-17-2020, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javi

You really got to stand back and look at these trailers when you're trying to figure out if you can carry them with your truck.. The manufacturers all play tricks with the numbers especially on the light weight 5th wheels..

Back off and look at where all the weight is in the trailer and then look at where all the storage is located..

For instance on my current 5th wheel, (which isn't really light weight) all the weight of furnishing and appliances is in the back 2/3's of the trailer but not any of the storage, and except for the fresh water tank

ALL of the tanks are INFRONT of the axles.. AND ALL THE STORAGE even the fridge... might be WHY my pin weight is 3600+ pounds...

My last 5th wheel the 333MKS Cougar was the same way.. 12,300 GVWR.. 3100 pin weight..

Based on this chart (https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...Tech-Specs.pdf) and using 3600# pin weight above the F-450 could not handle the trailer. The GVWR on the 450 is 14,000#. 25% of 14,000 is 3500#.

So what in real life does one use to figure out what to buy? Hell we just run to campgrounds for weekend/weekly camping, I'm not hauling for a living.

danvanvb · 12-17-2020, 01:31 PM

Belay my last, forgot to take curb weight into account. Sorry.

Javi · 12-17-2020, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

Based on this chart (https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...Tech-Specs.pdf) and using 3600# pin weight above the F-450 could not handle the trailer. The GVWR on the 450 is 14,000#. 25% of 14,000 is 3500#.

So what in real life does one use to figure out what to buy? Hell we just run to campgrounds for weekend/weekly camping, I'm not hauling for a living.

Actually use the GVWR of the TRAILER.. example: My trailer has a 15,000 lb GVWR 25% of 15,000 lbs is 3750 pounds..

My F350 Dually has a registered GVWR of 14,000 pounds and the tare weight before I hitch is 9800 as loaded including full tanks of fuel, fire wood and passengers.

14,000 - 9800 = 4200 pounds of payload left.. the trailer's pin weight is just over 3600 pounds.. so...... I could in theory add 600 pounds...

**JRTJH** · 12-17-2020, 01:37 PM

Javi is right when he says, "The manufacturers all play tricks with the numbers"

If we take the OP's truck info from his first post: Greetings. My wife and I are THINKING of upgrading to a 5th wheel. We currently have a 2016 Passport 31RE and a 2021 F-250 7.3 TT with a GCWR of 21,800# and a max towing of 14,700#.

Now, let's "analyze those ratings"....

The F250 GVWR is 10,000 pounds and the GCWR is 21,800 pounds... That means a maximum trailer weight (at truck GVW) is NOT 14,700 pounds....

21800 - 10000 = 11800 which is the "true maximum trailer weight" (if you have a driver, a passenger, a hitch and the pin weight of the trailer sitting IN the truck bed.....

In order to "make the advertising claim" that the truck can tow a 14,700 pound trailer and keep the GCWR at 21,800, the maximum truck curb weight would have to be 7100 pounds...... 21800 - 14700 = 7100

ALL of the manufacturers use the same "advertising department (not engineering department) calculations.... They literally "add apples and oranges to come up with peaches and print it for people to "believe and work with".....

As for 11-15% pin weight ???

Travel trailers typically range in the 11-15% tongue weight
Fifth wheel trailers typically range in the 20-25% pin weight

Don't mix the two, travel trailers "weigh in completely different from fifth wheels".....

wiredgeorge · 12-17-2020, 01:38 PM

This can be a confusing subject and made more so by prospective camper owners reading some chart from the manufacturer. That is pretty much fiction as NO truck you will find has the "maximum towing" number the OEM hypes.

To simplify, a fifth wheel will have about 23 percent of its gross weight on the hitch. Not some number off a chart. A gross weight of 10000 lbs will give you a pin weight of about 2300 lbs.

Add to the 2300 lbs, passengers in the truck, cargo in the truck and all the junk in the truck that is there that wasn't there when the truck was delivered to the dealer. That is, running boards, extra lights, tool boxes, brush guards, etc. Once you have this number, look at the yellow/white placard in your door frame that tells you your PAYLOAD; that is, the weight you can safely load ONTO the truck. It will say, "THE COMBINED WEIGHT OF THE PASSENGERS AND CARGO SHOULD NEVER EXCEED" and a number. This number can vary a LOT in a 3/4 or 1 ton based on the number of doo-dads in the truck; in other words a Superduty XL line Ford that is 2WD gas model and a regular cab will have a bunch more payload than the same Superduty but with a crew cab, 4WD and diesel.

danvanvb · 12-17-2020, 01:39 PM

I agree. I wasn't taking tare weight into consideration.

But still not giving up on the 5th wheel and not buying another truck.

Canonman · 12-17-2020, 01:45 PM

There are a number of very nice 5th wheels with a GVWR under 10k pounds. Any of these configurations would work with your 250 given that your payload is actually 3400 pounds. I understand the 7.3 motor is a gasser and therefor lighter than the diesel (more payload). Another way to reduce weight is to look at the Anderson hitch. Only 50#
A couple of floor plans we're looking at are: 24 RDS, 23 MLS. These are a little smaller than we have now, but we are looking for a bit shorter to fit into the forest service campground spots a little easier

wiredgeorge · 12-17-2020, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

I agree. I wasn't taking tare weight into consideration.

But still not giving up on the 5th wheel and not buying another truck.

Knock yourself out. As an American, you are free to make your own decisions but you have been given advice and you can decide to take that advice or not. I hope you have considered towing overweight can have legal ramifications if there is a wreck. If you are OK with that, I am OK as I live in another state and won't likely be sharing the road.

Northofu1 · 12-17-2020, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danvanvb

I agree. I wasn't taking tare weight into consideration.

But still not giving up on the 5th wheel and not buying another truck.

Hi Dan,
My set up is a 10k gvwr Cougar xlite.
It may not be built as sturdy as a regular cougar, but works well.
It tows great with my truck, at approximately 50 lbs I opted for the Andersen Ultimate to keep payload for pin weight. The numbers add up for the TV and 5er GVWR's as well as the GCVWR. There is no way I'm stuffing 2550 lbs of cargo into that trailer, I'm at 500 now, without out groceries and tools.
I wouldn't dream of going bigger.
Good luck to you.

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