Help with weight limit

[jasin1]

Get ready for the barrage lol

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

...I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not. It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label. One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court...

I think post #20 is a great post and an accurate description of where many of us have been. I have quoted the key phrase from the post above. Thanks for being honest Russ! Truth be told, most of us have BTDT - this is a lot different than a user in this position who is encouraging others to do the same - "sure, you'll be fine - go ahead and be illegal".

I fell into this trap out of ignorance (of the law, of physics, and just my own stupidity) - listening to salesmen. Wouldn't it be great if we could help others avoid this trap? To me, that's the best part of this forum!

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well as I have stated in the past, one of a 5er's best feature is also one it's biggest drawbacks!

That feature is their inherent stability while towing.



Keystone Forum Weight Police bear with me on this.

The fact is that a 3/4 ton, can/ and will be just as capable as a one ton SRW, with air bags and the correct tires has been debated for a long time. I was a Bad Boy on this forum for several years. I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not.
It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label.

One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court.

I towed for years between 1,200# and 1,700# over my TV's GVWR. The TV was a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel 5 speed manual with 3.55 gears, Camper Package and factory optional larger tires, GVWR 8,800#. The difference in overage was going from weekend camping to full time Camp Hosting.
The last time I scaled it the TV weighed 10,500#, with just under 6,000# on the rear axle rated at 6,084#.

Yes, it towed fine, never a white knuckle moment, it was being 1,700# over GVWR, the pin on the 5er was at about 2,700#. I never needed air bags due to the camper package, and you can't always determine overweight by looks, just look at the attached pictures of before and after.

We started looking at newer more capable TV, my math concerned me as if I went to a 3500 SRW with 12,300# GVWR and a payload of about 4,200# I would still be close. We chose to get a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW with a sticker payload of 5,411#. This tows and feels VERY stable, and I still have about 1,300# of excess payload with the 5er connected. Just an FYI we lost 1,411# of payload to us, our dog, hitch, and in bed tool box, this is the stuff many don't think about when looking at the Yellow Payload sticker on vehicles after 2006.

While I felt relaxed towing with the old TV, the experience with the new TV is heads and shoulders above the experience with the old TV, and now safely within "The Numbers"

Is it safe to crawl out from under the chair now?

My ram 2500 was more then capable for 99 percent of the towing with my fifth wheel. The only time I felt anything sketchy was going over road to bridge transitions or highway dips/ transitions. The truck would feel a little squirrely...the new truck is MUCH more stable and after getting schooled on the forum about weight limits I aired on the side of caution. The legal ramifications were keeping me up at night....But it cost me $81000 to sleep better. Edit: I did get employee pricing so saved some from this price

[Scottds]

Thanks for that insight rhagfoo and everyone else.
I shared this information with my wife, we are pretty much starting over in our search. I sold the camper shell that was on the old Ford last week and have gathered a new 5th wheel mounting kit and hitch. I think I can return the mounting kit, it got here yesterday. The hitch I’ll save for another day, it was lightly used and I got it for a great price.
While I have everything in one place I’m going to load everything up and get weighed. Obviously it’s not going to be a pretty picture.
While being misled at the dealerships is hard to believe I can understand and have always been a buyer beware kind of person. I am thankful for everyone here and that I didn’t make a major mistake!

[JRTJH]

Many of us "have towed way over weight limits" in the past.....

The phrase: "IN THE PAST" (at least for me) is the key.....

In the past, I also rode a motorcycle without a helmet, I drank from a creek, I ate food from little stands in Mexico, I slept on the beach in a tent in Turkey with no concern for being "an American in a Muslim country" and I walked around Greece with no Traveler's Cheque" protection, but with "American green" as my only money source. We even walked the streets of Tehran with no fear of being an American. THOSE TIMES HAVE CHANGED....

In the past, there were far fewer people using the roads and I think that's one of the key aspects of today's "be careful, be legal" concerns...

When I was riding a MC without a helmet, we lived 5 miles from town on US 51, the major north/south highway from New Orleans to Chicago. Even then, often times, I'd ride that 5 miles and NEVER meet another vehicle. Then along came I-55 and the traffic on US 51 was even less. Now days, it seems that motorcycles are more a "target" than someone who shares the road.... My point is that "in the past" the only person our "stupidity" or our "carelessness" would hurt was likely "just us". That's no longer true...

Now days, with all the people using the roads, "being independent and caring about "just me" is long gone... Add lawyers and "greedy injured parties" to the mix and it becomes apparent that "we are no longer in an environment where it's "just us" that is impacted by inappropriate choices.......

Unfortunately, far too many RV salesmen have not evolved from "in the past" to also consider the current threats along with the "you an tow anything on the lot" mentality.....

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well as I have stated in the past, one of a 5er's best feature is also one it's biggest drawbacks!

That feature is their inherent stability while towing.



Keystone Forum Weight Police bear with me on this.

The fact is that a 3/4 ton, can/ and will be just as capable as a one ton SRW, with air bags and the correct tires has been debated for a long time. I was a Bad Boy on this forum for several years. I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not.
It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label.

One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court.

I towed for years between 1,200# and 1,700# over my TV's GVWR. The TV was a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel 5 speed manual with 3.55 gears, Camper Package and factory optional larger tires, GVWR 8,800#. The difference in overage was going from weekend camping to full time Camp Hosting.
The last time I scaled it the TV weighed 10,500#, with just under 6,000# on the rear axle rated at 6,084#.

Yes, it towed fine, never a white knuckle moment, it was being 1,700# over GVWR, the pin on the 5er was at about 2,700#. I never needed air bags due to the camper package, and you can't always determine overweight by looks, just look at the attached pictures of before and after.

We started looking at newer more capable TV, my math concerned me as if I went to a 3500 SRW with 12,300# GVWR and a payload of about 4,200# I would still be close. We chose to get a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW with a sticker payload of 5,411#. This tows and feels VERY stable, and I still have about 1,300# of excess payload with the 5er connected. Just an FYI we lost 1,411# of payload to us, our dog, hitch, and in bed tool box, this is the stuff many don't think about when looking at the Yellow Payload sticker on vehicles after 2006.

While I felt relaxed towing with the old TV, the experience with the new TV is heads and shoulders above the experience with the old TV, and now safely within "The Numbers"

Is it safe to crawl out from under the chair now?

If you don't mind Russ, on a side note have you had any issues with water leaks on your ram?
I have a little drip on my drivers windshield pillar grab handle after heavy rain. The dealer hired an outside contractor to SEAL around the clearance lights and rear brake light. I'm scheduled for next week.
I realize that having a bunch of holes in roof for clearance lights and sunroof is hard to completely seal but feel the factory should do a better job.
I'm a little leary about the FIX the dealer scheduled

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by jasin1

If you don't mind Russ, on a side note have you had any issues with water leaks on your ram?
I have a little drip on my drivers windshield pillar grab handle after heavy rain. The dealer hired an outside contractor to SEAL around the clearance lights and rear brake light. I'm scheduled for next week.
I realize that having a bunch of holes in roof for clearance lights and sunroof is hard to completely seal but feel the factory should do a better job.
I'm a little leary about the FIX the dealer scheduled

No leak issues, and we have just had a period of very heavy rain!

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

No leak issues, and we have just had a period of very heavy rain!

Ok thanks. It's probably just a clearance light leak. I'm sure they will get it fixed

[dutchmensport]

Just something to think about. Your truck is 21 years old.....

I've had 3 Chevy Silverado Long Bed Crew Cab 3500 dualy's.

The first was a gasser. We purchased it used, about 5 years old at the time. It towed a travel trailer nice. I still used weight distribution and never had a problem.

Then I had it serviced at my dealership and I asked them to do a through inspection of the truck since we were planning a 2000 mile one way trip with the trailer. They did a through inspection for me and my service guy (who I've known for a long time and trust him completely), said the frame on my truck was so rusted out, if I towed a travel trailer much longer, I ran the risk of actually breaking the frame in half. I was in shock, because the truck was emasculate in every other way and towed magnificently and had power and good suspension like no other vehicle I've ever had.

He helped me find a new (used) Chevy Silverado dualy, long bed, crew cab 3500 diesel. We'd upgraded a few years in the Chevy line now and this truck was beyond magnificent. It made the first one fell like we'd been towing with a Volkswagon all those years. Power, Power, Power ... unbelievable. We moved up to a much larger travel trailer, much heavier and never, ever, ever had any issues towing ....... except!

The body of that truck was fiberglass and the bed of the truck was fiberglass skin, and after a few years the fat fenders were spider cracking out. It looked awful. I took it to 3 different repair body shops to see what it would take to fix and all 3 of them quoted me a couple thousand dollars for each side of the truck bed. (Actually, at that time, I never thought about just getting a whole new truck bed.) There was also a lot of rust forming at the bottom of the doors as seen from the outside. They told me the doors needed to be replaced. They were not fixable. Even if they Bondo'ed the doors and sanded out the rust, it would all be back within a year.

We made the hard decision to purchase a new Chevy 3500 dualy, Silverado Diesel long bed, crew cab. And it's been great ever since (same one in my signature below).

I suppose what I'm saying is, before you decide to hitch up with your 21 year old truck, take the time and have the frame and all adjoining parts inspected and get a professional opinion of how strong the actual frame is to tow anything.

I'm making this suggestion from personal experience, and a very trustworthy GM service facility that spared me a horrible future if I failed to listen to them. Do the same before proceeding. Get the truck checked out and see if its still recommended for towing.

Good luck.

[Scottds]

dutchmensport, yes it is old, we are hoping to replace it within a few years anyways. One benefit of living in Vegas is no rust at all. It is still old but has been maintained since day 1, it has been a wonderful trouble free truck with 190k on it.

I weighed it today, my trucks GVWR is 8800 lbs.
All loaded up with tools, hitch, hitch mount, fuel, and wife we are at a total of 7820 lbs.

I also found that the truck is limited to 10,000 lbs. TT due to the limitation of the conventional trailer hitch.
Which rules out the larger Cougar Half-Ton TT.

I have a 2013 Skyline Nomad Joey 269, that the wife hates the queen size bed, it's cramped and its also getting old but in good shape. I had no idea, that little trailer was about all the old Ford should handle...Ignorance is bliss, so they say, haha.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Scottds

dutchmensport, yes it is old, we are hoping to replace it within a few years anyways. One benefit of living in Vegas is no rust at all. It is still old but has been maintained since day 1, it has been a wonderful trouble free truck with 190k on it.

I weighed it today, my trucks GVWR is 8800 lbs.
All loaded up with tools, hitch, hitch mount, fuel, and wife we are at a total of 7820 lbs.

I also found that the truck is limited to 10,000 lbs. TT due to the limitation of the conventional trailer hitch.
Which rules out the larger Cougar Half-Ton TT.

I have a 2013 Skyline Nomad Joey 269, that the wife hates the queen size bed, it's cramped and its also getting old but in good shape. I had no idea, that little trailer was about all the old Ford should handle...Ignorance is bliss, so they say, haha.

You should win an award for having common sense and good judgement
Sorry that you trailer options are limited but you can have fun and good memories in any trailer whether new or old. Just get out there and have fun

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Scottds

dutchmensport, yes it is old, we are hoping to replace it within a few years anyways. One benefit of living in Vegas is no rust at all. It is still old but has been maintained since day 1, it has been a wonderful trouble free truck with 190k on it.

I weighed it today, my trucks GVWR is 8800 lbs.
All loaded up with tools, hitch, hitch mount, fuel, and wife we are at a total of 7820 lbs.

I also found that the truck is limited to 10,000 lbs. TT due to the limitation of the conventional trailer hitch.
Which rules out the larger Cougar Half-Ton TT.

I have a 2013 Skyline Nomad Joey 269, that the wife hates the queen size bed, it's cramped and its also getting old but in good shape. I had no idea, that little trailer was about all the old Ford should handle...Ignorance is bliss, so they say, haha.

So 980 lbs. remaining payload. Using 13% for tongue weight that's a max 7,500 lb. GVW (not empty weight or shipping weight) trailer. Happy hunting!

[Scottds]

Ya, my 26’ Joey’s GVW is 7,750 lb
Something just doesn’t seem quite right about these numbers and a 3/4 ton truck, you forget the trailer is even back there when your pulling it and on paper it is maxed out?

[chunker]

Originally Posted by Scottds

dutchmensport, 0,000 lbs. TT due to the limitation of the conventional trailer hitch.
Which rules out the larger Cougar Half-Ton TT.

I have a 2013 Skyline Nomad Joey 269, that the wife hates the queen size bed, it's cramped and its also getting old but in good shape. I had no idea, that little trailer was about all the old Ford should handle...Ignorance is bliss, so they say, haha.

If she hates the queen, have her look at the RV king that's prevalent in many RVs today. Now pretend you need to make that bed with no room to get on the sides. Then figure what a replacement RV king costs vs a residential queen bed you can buy anywhere.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Scottds

Ya, my 26’ Joey’s GVW is 7,750 lb
Something just doesn’t seem quite right about these numbers and a 3/4 ton truck, you forget the trailer is even back there when your pulling it and on paper it is maxed out?

That's the difference between pulling something and carrying something. 3/4 ton diesels are basically built as work trucks. They are designed to pull trailers with light tongue weights like a flatbed with a small excavator, or a dump bed trailer like a landscaper or roofer would use. Often they have pintle hooks instead of ball receivers. This is different than towing a travel trailer with 13% of GVW on the tongue or 25% of the weight on the fifth wheel pin.

Think of payload vs towing capacity this way. Go to Home Depot and get a flat cart. Fill it with several hundred pounds of bricks. You can pull that cart. Now place that same amount of weight in awhile barrow. Now the weight is on the tire and in your hands. I doubt you'll get very far with same weight in the wheelbarrow.

Bottom line if you want to tow any sizable fifth wheel you'll need a 1 ton truck. The larger the trailer the more payload required and you start into F350 dually or F450 or larger truck. The numbers are what they are, they don't lie.

[Scottds]

It’s been eye opening for sure!
Thanks for the explanation, I wasn’t thinking about low tongue weight trailers. But it’s still quite limited be the hitches 10k limit.
I’m not questioning the math, well I guess I am, but I won’t hall heavy according to the numbers, it just really makes it hard when what I thought was a relatively small TT that I have pulled for years and barely even compresses the rear springs is Max.
I’m sure the TT is not loaded near GVW and the truck GVW would not include the 5th wheel mount and hitch. So in reality it’s not quite max, but is as big as I’ll go with the old Ford.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Scottds

It’s been eye opening for sure!
Thanks for the explanation, I wasn’t thinking about low tongue weight trailers. But it’s still quite limited be the hitches 10k limit.
I’m not questioning the math, well I guess I am, but I won’t hall heavy according to the numbers, it just really makes it hard when what I thought was a relatively small TT that I have pulled for years and barely even compresses the rear springs is Max.
I’m sure the TT is not loaded near GVW and the truck GVW would not include the 5th wheel mount and hitch. So in reality it’s not quite max, but is as big as I’ll go with the old Ford.

The hitch rating is the maximum that the hitch can tolerate and not the truck. It's "weakest link in the chain" scenario. A lot of folks don't understand that the "chain" in this case is all the load bearing components of the truck like tires, brakes, springs, wheel bearings, axles, frame, etc. Some think because the engine can pull it and go fast that's all they need. Typically the thought process then goes to "well I added air bags, or I added another leaf to the rear springs" but that doesn't change the "rest of the links in the chain"

As an owner of a base model F250 (less options means more payload) I understand the frustration. I'll leave with thought. So much of how we understand our world is in interpreting visual clues. Most folks, if witnessing a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 40' trailer that you see behind a semi tractor going down the highway you think "why is that truck pulling that, it's too much for the truck"! But place a 43' loaded toy hauler behind it and they think they are just fine. Yet both trailers, if the first is empty, could be very close in weight.

[Scottds]

I appreciate you all for taking the time to educate me on this subject, saving me a lot of troubles, dollars and helping to protect my family and others.
Thank you!

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by flybouy

...So much of how we understand our world is in interpreting visual clues. Most folks, if witnessing a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 40' trailer that you see behind a semi tractor going down the highway you think "why is that truck pulling that, it's too much for the truck"! But place a 43' loaded toy hauler behind it and they think they are just fine. Yet both trailers, if the first is empty, could be very close in weight.

Marshall,
Great explanation!

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by LewisB

Marshall,
Great explanation!
Attachment 31617

Attachment 31618

In the photo you posted the trailer pin is supported by a bogie so the truck is not supporting the trailer pin weight.