Help with weight limit

[Scottds]

My wife and I have been looking at 5th wheel trailers. We don’t have any experience with them and I have been trying to figure out what trailer shipping weight + carry capacity “range” I should be looking at and not going over. We like the Cougar line from what we have looked at so far.
If you could help me out, I would appreciate it, I watched YouTube videos but just need some help with the numbers.
My truck is a 2000 Ford F-250 Super Duty 7.3 diesel 4x4 club cab
I have a door sticker and build sheet but no yellow sticker on my door jamb.
Here is what I got.

[jasin1]

Your gonna be looking at the 1/2 ton fifth wheel line with that setup. And with the low gvwr of 8800 lbs you may be pushing it with that as well.
I can’t imagine you have much more the 1500 lbs of payload capacity. That truck may be better suited for a travel trailer.
Others on the forum are more knowledgeable.If you have the capacity to stay engaged and have a dialogue with an open mind then you can get all the info here that you need to make a good and safe decision.
Many have come before you with the same problem of “too little truck” and too big of fifth wheel”..( myself included). This is a phrase often repeated on the forum.
Your first reaction will probably be a defensive one...try to push past that and be open to suggestions from different people with different levels of tact.
It’s kinda like you wouldn’t want to have a giant rv diesel pusher with a Toyota 4 cylinder instead of a Diesel engine,it would be the wrong combination. Your truck and a fifth wheel would also probably be the wrong combination when it was brand new,now the suspension is 21 years old.
Newer Ford 2500 series have a higher gvwr but you still would be relegated to a 1/2 ton fifth wheel if you choose a Diesel engine ( diesels weigh lot more and that is subtracted from your available payload)
You have enough truck to pull but not “carry” the pin weight of a fifth wheel directly in the bed.
Look for a 2500 gas or a 3500 diesel and you will be good I would think but pay attention to payload sticker on newer trucks and ask around this forum and you can find a perfect combination that you can safely tow.
1/2 ton towable does not mean you can use a 1/2 ton pickup ,it’s a meaningless advertisement
And last but not least ,ignore your neighbor or friend of a friend that says “you’ll be fine,don’t listen to them!” .....you won’t be and you’ll be glad you did listen.

[flybouy]

Scottds welcome to the forum. The yellow and white payload sticker wasn't in use until several years after your truck was manufactured. The limiting factor will be your GVWR of 8,800 lbs. Newer 3/4 ton trucks are typically 10,000 lbs.

The best advice I can give you is to visit a scale and weight your truck loaded as if you were going camping, i.e. all passengers, pets, ice chest, snacks, firewood and anything else that you would load in the truck. Take that weight slip, then add about 120 lbs for a good weight distributing hitch for a travel trailer or 200 lbs for a fifth wheel hitch. Then take that 8,800 lb from the sticker and subtract the scale + hitch weight. That will be the remaining payload.

3/4 ton diesel trucks, especially older models, are great trucks for pulling a load not carrying a load. They were designed primarily as work trucks and used to haul trailers with relatively light tongue weights. Some examples would be flatbed trailers with a small excavator or a dump trailer like a roofer or a landscaper would use . That type trailer has the load primarily supported by the trailer axles and may have a pintle instead of a ball hitch.

The Cat scales at most truck stops charge a very little for weighing and will give you all the info you need. Their web site https://catscale.com/ has the scale locations as well as how to weight your vehicle. After you compute your load capacity do not use the published tongue or pin weights from the trailer manufacturers. Those weights are not "real world numbers" but are based on a "delivered weight" which does not account for the battery, LP tanks, spare tire, or any of the stuff that you would put inside. A closer number would be to use the trailer's GVW as you will be closer to that when set up for use.

To calculate a fifth wheel pin weight take the GVWR of the trailer and figure about 23% will be pin weight. So for example if the fifth wheel GVWR is 10,000 lbs the the pin weight can be estimated as 10,000 X .23 = 2,300. It could be less or more but use that as an ESTIMATE. Travel trailers are typically about 13% pog GVWR as the tongue weight so for our comparison a 10,000 lb trailer will have about 1,300 lbs of tongue weight. This is why people are recommending searching for a travel trailer with your truck.

If you are considering a different truck to carry a larger fifth wheel then look to a 1 ton truck. A 350 or 3500 series (1 ton). You may need dual rear wheels if you want diesel power maintain a large payload capacity or upsize further to 450, 4500 series truck.

Hope this helps.

[rhagfo]

Well 2000 will not have a yellow payload sticker, they were not required until 2006. Well the first thing to do is get a base weight for your truck. Head to a nearby scale CAT scales at a truck stop, scales at local gravel yard and get weights for front and rear axles.
Once you have those, add together and subtract from your 8,800# GVWR, and that is what you have to work with for wet pin weight, hitch, and anything else you add to the truck.

Personal experience with a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel and 8,800# GVWR, think small and lite. You will likely only have about 1,500# of payload available.

[Scottds]

I appreciate all the knowledge here, thank you!
I have had two different dealers tell me my truck is fine with trailers in the 11,500 dry weight area.
I have a feeling there are a lot of over weighted rigs on the road!
Loading my truck up and weighing it sounds like a great idea!
I have a feeling the old truck could pull most anything all day, just not carry it.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Scottds

I appreciate all the knowledge here, thank you!
I have had two different dealers tell me my truck is fine with trailers in the 11,500 dry weight area.
I have a feeling there are a lot of over weighted rigs on the road!
Loading my truck up and weighing it sounds like a great idea!
I have a feeling the old truck could pull most anything all day, just not carry it.

That’s the biggest mistake (con) that RV salespeople use the dry or shipping weight. I guess they figure nobody puts food, clothes or dishes in the RV

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Scottds

I appreciate all the knowledge here, thank you!
I have had two different dealers tell me my truck is fine with trailers in the 11,500 dry weight area.
I have a feeling there are a lot of over weighted rigs on the road!
Loading my truck up and weighing it sounds like a great idea!
I have a feeling the old truck could pull most anything all day, just not carry it.

Dealers usually have "one motive" and that is selling you a trailer. If they were "realistic with statements" they would reduce their profit margin and likely go out of business.....

That said, there is some truth to what you're being told. Your truck is probably "fine with trailers in the 11,500 weight range" (but that's conventional travel trailers, not fifth wheel trailers) and it's "WET WEIGHT (fully loaded) not "DRY WEIGHT" which is "empty" and none of us will ever go camping with an empty trailer....

So, learning to "speak salesmanese" will help cut through the crap of separating you from your money and help you make wise choices...

All travel trailers (bumper pull type) have a tongue weight in the 10-15% of total weight. A 11.5K trailer will have a tongue weight of 1150-1725 pounds. To that add the weight of the hitch and that's what you're putting on the truck payload.

All fifth wheels have a pin weight in the 20-25% range. That same 11,500 pound trailer will have a pin weight of 2300-2875 pounds. Add 150-250 pounds for the hitch and you're at roughly 2500-3000 pounds on the truck payload.

As you can see, the "KIND OF TRAILER" you're talking about can easily mean a difference of half a ton (or more) between different types, so the "blanket statement" that you're good with an empty trailer in the 11,500 range is "pure baloney" (or bologna if it's lunchtime)....

Why bologna? Because they're feeding you BS and it's not lunchtime yet......

[sourdough]

Scottds sorry I'm a little late but looks like the process for estimating what is going to be loaded "on" your truck has been covered. I applaud you for taking the time to investigate and look into this with an open mind. It's hard to do sometimes. It will however go a long way to keep you and your family safe.

As has been mentioned several times you will have a low payload and 5th wheels are going to be a stretch for your truck - any of them. I had a 14 3/4 ton gas, payload 3190, and would not buy a Cougar (315RLS) until I went to a 1 ton (in signature). Too much trailer - and that payload is probably close to double what you will have. Keep your mind open to all options; either new truck or a bumper pull trailer. The truck is now 21 years old, the entire suspension needs to be gone through if you are going to max it out on weight carrying capacity. Good luck on your search.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by Scottds

I appreciate all the knowledge here, thank you!
I have had two different dealers tell me my truck is fine with trailers in the 11,500 dry weight area.
I have a feeling there are a lot of over weighted rigs on the road!
Loading my truck up and weighing it sounds like a great idea!
I have a feeling the old truck could pull most anything all day, just not carry it.

Exactly! Congratulations, you have captured the basic understanding, are asking the right questions, doing the right things. Continue with this course of action and you will make knowledgeable decisions.

You are absolutely correct regarding the number of overweight rigs on the road. The RVSEF (RV Safety Education Foundation) says that based on their years of testing, 60% of all RV tow vehicles exceed at least one of the required weight capacities while many exceed ALL required capacities. For the towed trailer, 51% and 55% for fifth wheels exceed at least one required weight capacity.

That means that every second RV you meet on your trip does not adhere to safe and legal weight capacities.

Keep doing the right thing!

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LewisB

Exactly! Congratulations, you have captured the basic understanding, are asking the right questions, doing the right things. Continue with this course of action and you will make knowledgeable decisions.

You are absolutely correct regarding the number of overweight rigs on the road. The RVSEF (RV Safety Education Foundation) says that based on their years of testing, 60% of all RV tow vehicles exceed at least one of the required weight capacities while many exceed ALL required capacities. For the towed trailer, 51% and 55% for fifth wheels exceed at least one required weight capacity.

That means that every second RV you meet on your trip does not adhere to safe and legal weight capacities.

Keep doing the right thing!

Attachment 31576

And the driver of that "2nd rv" will argue til the cows come that it "tows like a dream cause I put LT tires on it & airbags" all while towing grossly overloaded.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

And the driver of that "2nd rv" will argue til the cows come that it "tows like a dream cause I put LT tires on it & airbags" all while towing grossly overloaded.

It's like when I step on the scale at the doctor's office. He says I'm overweight, I say "yes, but I'm big boned, just look at my 15 EEEE shoes!". He then says that doesn't change the fact that are overweight for your height.

Curse those damned scales and weight charts, at 6'2" I just need to grow another foot or two, or...

[Sarge2]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

And the driver of that "2nd rv" will argue til the cows come that it "tows like a dream cause I put LT tires on it & airbags" all while towing grossly overloaded.

Ouch!!! Wonder who's quote that is?? LOL...

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

And the driver of that "2nd rv" will argue til the cows come that it "tows like a dream cause I put LT tires on it & airbags" all while towing grossly overloaded.

Well as I have stated in the past, one of a 5er's best feature is also one it's biggest drawbacks!

That feature is their inherent stability while towing.



Keystone Forum Weight Police bear with me on this.

The fact is that a 3/4 ton, can/ and will be just as capable as a one ton SRW, with air bags and the correct tires has been debated for a long time. I was a Bad Boy on this forum for several years. I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not.
It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label.

One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court.

I towed for years between 1,200# and 1,700# over my TV's GVWR. The TV was a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel 5 speed manual with 3.55 gears, Camper Package and factory optional larger tires, GVWR 8,800#. The difference in overage was going from weekend camping to full time Camp Hosting.
The last time I scaled it the TV weighed 10,500#, with just under 6,000# on the rear axle rated at 6,084#.

Yes, it towed fine, never a white knuckle moment, it was being 1,700# over GVWR, the pin on the 5er was at about 2,700#. I never needed air bags due to the camper package, and you can't always determine overweight by looks, just look at the attached pictures of before and after.

We started looking at newer more capable TV, my math concerned me as if I went to a 3500 SRW with 12,300# GVWR and a payload of about 4,200# I would still be close. We chose to get a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW with a sticker payload of 5,411#. This tows and feels VERY stable, and I still have about 1,300# of excess payload with the 5er connected. Just an FYI we lost 1,411# of payload to us, our dog, hitch, and in bed tool box, this is the stuff many don't think about when looking at the Yellow Payload sticker on vehicles after 2006.

While I felt relaxed towing with the old TV, the experience with the new TV is heads and shoulders above the experience with the old TV, and now safely within "The Numbers"

Is it safe to crawl out from under the chair now?

[jasin1]

Get ready for the barrage lol

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

...I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not. It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label. One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court...

I think post #20 is a great post and an accurate description of where many of us have been. I have quoted the key phrase from the post above. Thanks for being honest Russ! Truth be told, most of us have BTDT - this is a lot different than a user in this position who is encouraging others to do the same - "sure, you'll be fine - go ahead and be illegal".

I fell into this trap out of ignorance (of the law, of physics, and just my own stupidity) - listening to salesmen. Wouldn't it be great if we could help others avoid this trap? To me, that's the best part of this forum!

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well as I have stated in the past, one of a 5er's best feature is also one it's biggest drawbacks!

That feature is their inherent stability while towing.



Keystone Forum Weight Police bear with me on this.

The fact is that a 3/4 ton, can/ and will be just as capable as a one ton SRW, with air bags and the correct tires has been debated for a long time. I was a Bad Boy on this forum for several years. I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not.
It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label.

One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court.

I towed for years between 1,200# and 1,700# over my TV's GVWR. The TV was a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel 5 speed manual with 3.55 gears, Camper Package and factory optional larger tires, GVWR 8,800#. The difference in overage was going from weekend camping to full time Camp Hosting.
The last time I scaled it the TV weighed 10,500#, with just under 6,000# on the rear axle rated at 6,084#.

Yes, it towed fine, never a white knuckle moment, it was being 1,700# over GVWR, the pin on the 5er was at about 2,700#. I never needed air bags due to the camper package, and you can't always determine overweight by looks, just look at the attached pictures of before and after.

We started looking at newer more capable TV, my math concerned me as if I went to a 3500 SRW with 12,300# GVWR and a payload of about 4,200# I would still be close. We chose to get a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW with a sticker payload of 5,411#. This tows and feels VERY stable, and I still have about 1,300# of excess payload with the 5er connected. Just an FYI we lost 1,411# of payload to us, our dog, hitch, and in bed tool box, this is the stuff many don't think about when looking at the Yellow Payload sticker on vehicles after 2006.

While I felt relaxed towing with the old TV, the experience with the new TV is heads and shoulders above the experience with the old TV, and now safely within "The Numbers"

Is it safe to crawl out from under the chair now?

My ram 2500 was more then capable for 99 percent of the towing with my fifth wheel. The only time I felt anything sketchy was going over road to bridge transitions or highway dips/ transitions. The truck would feel a little squirrely...the new truck is MUCH more stable and after getting schooled on the forum about weight limits I aired on the side of caution. The legal ramifications were keeping me up at night....But it cost me $81000 to sleep better. Edit: I did get employee pricing so saved some from this price

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well as I have stated in the past, one of a 5er's best feature is also one it's biggest drawbacks!

That feature is their inherent stability while towing.



Keystone Forum Weight Police bear with me on this.

The fact is that a 3/4 ton, can/ and will be just as capable as a one ton SRW, with air bags and the correct tires has been debated for a long time. I was a Bad Boy on this forum for several years. I never recommend others to do as I was doing, BUT encouraged to get the correct TV for the 5er they were towing. It wasn't about safety, but possible legal issues if in a crash your fault or not.
It is documented several times in owners manuals and manufacture towing guides that is unsafe to tow over any of the weights stated on the VIN tag or Vehicle Certification Label.

One can be found at fault even if NOT cited for a traffic violation in civil court.

I towed for years between 1,200# and 1,700# over my TV's GVWR. The TV was a 2001 Ram 2500 Diesel 5 speed manual with 3.55 gears, Camper Package and factory optional larger tires, GVWR 8,800#. The difference in overage was going from weekend camping to full time Camp Hosting.
The last time I scaled it the TV weighed 10,500#, with just under 6,000# on the rear axle rated at 6,084#.

Yes, it towed fine, never a white knuckle moment, it was being 1,700# over GVWR, the pin on the 5er was at about 2,700#. I never needed air bags due to the camper package, and you can't always determine overweight by looks, just look at the attached pictures of before and after.

We started looking at newer more capable TV, my math concerned me as if I went to a 3500 SRW with 12,300# GVWR and a payload of about 4,200# I would still be close. We chose to get a 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW with a sticker payload of 5,411#. This tows and feels VERY stable, and I still have about 1,300# of excess payload with the 5er connected. Just an FYI we lost 1,411# of payload to us, our dog, hitch, and in bed tool box, this is the stuff many don't think about when looking at the Yellow Payload sticker on vehicles after 2006.

While I felt relaxed towing with the old TV, the experience with the new TV is heads and shoulders above the experience with the old TV, and now safely within "The Numbers"

Is it safe to crawl out from under the chair now?

If you don't mind Russ, on a side note have you had any issues with water leaks on your ram?
I have a little drip on my drivers windshield pillar grab handle after heavy rain. The dealer hired an outside contractor to SEAL around the clearance lights and rear brake light. I'm scheduled for next week.
I realize that having a bunch of holes in roof for clearance lights and sunroof is hard to completely seal but feel the factory should do a better job.
I'm a little leary about the FIX the dealer scheduled

[Scottds]

Thanks Flybouy, the link to the scales is very helpful and also your post simplified the calculations for me also��
At least the old 7.3 is in excellent condition, I would hate to see it go though.

[Scottds]

Thanks for that insight rhagfoo and everyone else.
I shared this information with my wife, we are pretty much starting over in our search. I sold the camper shell that was on the old Ford last week and have gathered a new 5th wheel mounting kit and hitch. I think I can return the mounting kit, it got here yesterday. The hitch I’ll save for another day, it was lightly used and I got it for a great price.
While I have everything in one place I’m going to load everything up and get weighed. Obviously it’s not going to be a pretty picture.
While being misled at the dealerships is hard to believe I can understand and have always been a buyer beware kind of person. I am thankful for everyone here and that I didn’t make a major mistake!

[dutchmensport]

Just something to think about. Your truck is 21 years old.....

I've had 3 Chevy Silverado Long Bed Crew Cab 3500 dualy's.

The first was a gasser. We purchased it used, about 5 years old at the time. It towed a travel trailer nice. I still used weight distribution and never had a problem.

Then I had it serviced at my dealership and I asked them to do a through inspection of the truck since we were planning a 2000 mile one way trip with the trailer. They did a through inspection for me and my service guy (who I've known for a long time and trust him completely), said the frame on my truck was so rusted out, if I towed a travel trailer much longer, I ran the risk of actually breaking the frame in half. I was in shock, because the truck was emasculate in every other way and towed magnificently and had power and good suspension like no other vehicle I've ever had.

He helped me find a new (used) Chevy Silverado dualy, long bed, crew cab 3500 diesel. We'd upgraded a few years in the Chevy line now and this truck was beyond magnificent. It made the first one fell like we'd been towing with a Volkswagon all those years. Power, Power, Power ... unbelievable. We moved up to a much larger travel trailer, much heavier and never, ever, ever had any issues towing ....... except!

The body of that truck was fiberglass and the bed of the truck was fiberglass skin, and after a few years the fat fenders were spider cracking out. It looked awful. I took it to 3 different repair body shops to see what it would take to fix and all 3 of them quoted me a couple thousand dollars for each side of the truck bed. (Actually, at that time, I never thought about just getting a whole new truck bed.) There was also a lot of rust forming at the bottom of the doors as seen from the outside. They told me the doors needed to be replaced. They were not fixable. Even if they Bondo'ed the doors and sanded out the rust, it would all be back within a year.

We made the hard decision to purchase a new Chevy 3500 dualy, Silverado Diesel long bed, crew cab. And it's been great ever since (same one in my signature below).

I suppose what I'm saying is, before you decide to hitch up with your 21 year old truck, take the time and have the frame and all adjoining parts inspected and get a professional opinion of how strong the actual frame is to tow anything.

I'm making this suggestion from personal experience, and a very trustworthy GM service facility that spared me a horrible future if I failed to listen to them. Do the same before proceeding. Get the truck checked out and see if its still recommended for towing.

Good luck.