Alpine 3910RK rear box attachment issue

[bsmith0404]

Could be the drop frame wasn’t square. Go underneath and measure the drop on each side. Personally, I don’t see how the pass through doors/floor would line up if that was the case, but I’m grasping at straws here.

I’d also be measuring the height of the frame from the ground all around if the ground is level. And see if you can figure out where things are off.

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I personally don’t see how it could be the box either. It’s attached to the floor and sits on out riggers that are attached to the frame. If the floor is level, I don’t see how it could be the frame. If the floor is level, i also don’t see how the counter or cabinets could not be level since they sit on the floor. This is strange. The one thing that comes to mind is if the walls are the same height floor to ceiling. If it was mine, I’d be doing a lot more measuring and checking to try to determine what is really off

As for moving the rear Jack by itself, I don’t see why you would want to. The 12” I beam frame is unlikely to bend/flex end to end. That’s why it l lifted the front jack. The smaller cross members between the two I beams side to side could flex (I’ve never seen it happen, but would believe that before I believed an I beam bent or twisted. That’s also why all jacks on one side are designed to move together. You move everything down the length of the I beam as one unit.

This is exactly why I am here. This makes no sense to me either. I want other opinions to justify my concern. It’s hard to see in the picture, but that Reese hitch on the back leans towards the left as well, but not at the same angle as the box. It’s like 1 1/2 inches off and the box is nearly 4”.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by cgraydotcom

No way to tow it…. Dealer came and picked it up.
12 miles away….. Still took 6 weeks to drive over and look at it.
The lot IS level and the camper IS level.

We bought it brand new off the showroom floor and had it delivered. The walk around in a confined space would not have made this as noticeable. My complaint shortly after delivery came with about the same attitude that you have. That I must be some sort of idiot and there’s no way it’s built wrong. Therefore the urgency was not prevalent that it gets fixed. And I mentioned that the frame wasn’t as twisted as the dealer thought. The box was not leveled on assembly.

I don't know how you interpreted my questions as inferring that you are an idiot. I'm done, good luck, I wish you well.

[bsmith0404]

Check your outriggers on each side. See if the wall is at the same level as the floor. On my Alpine, which is a few years older than yours (about 10). They look like the pics attached. The ones with the spacers are on the slide area, the ones without are a non slide area. It bepends if the slide is a flush slide or not if they get spacers. For example, my living room slides are a flush floor slide and have spacers. My kitchen slide is not and does t drop into place, no spacers. But basically, you should be able to look at them and see if the wall and floor are at the same level.

[cgray3910rk]

Here’s what I think. See if anyone agrees.

The left I-beam is bowed around 4”. This causes about a 4” drop to the back left corner.

If you lean the right side to the right about 2” in the front, the rear will be the same 2” off in the opposite direction.

The floor will measure level in the center, and gradually get worse as you travel front or back, maxing out in the opposite corners. You can’t get to the worst locations because of cabinetry and closets. So you can’t detect how bad it really is except from the outside.

They agreed to level the countertop, probably in that back left corner where it drops the most.

The drop also pulls the fridge doors towards the low side.

The back AC unit does not work well. Probably because it’s not level.

The slides stick moving in and out. Because it’s twisted.

This would have been difficult to detect at the dealer without a full leveling inspection. And who does that?

But when it’s sitting on its wheels, it looks just like the picture.

Ive been getting the runaround for 9 months with the last 3 being Keystone because they think it’s ok.

It’s not ok. How do I get them to resolve this?

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I don't know how you interpreted my questions as inferring that you are an idiot. I'm done, good luck, I wish you well.

Because you started right off questioning my legitimacy because if I couldn’t tow my unit, how was it possible that I took it back to the dealer. Which was irrelevant to the situation. You set the tone with your input, which ultimately, didn’t do much anyway. And then implied that even tho I came here for advice, I must be withholding important information. Yep, came here to lie. And when I reversed your implication, you had to go back thru all of my responses to find anything negative so you could bail out. I’m glad you are done, you didn’t help. I’m thankful the rest replied with legitimate answers. I would say I hope you have a nice day, but I would be lying. I don’t really care if you do.

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Check your outriggers on each side. See if the wall is at the same level as the floor. On my Alpine, which is a few years older than yours (about 10). They look like the pics attached. The ones with the spacers are on the slide area, the ones without are a non slide area. It bepends if the slide is a flush slide or not if they get spacers. For example, my living room slides are a flush floor slide and have spacers. My kitchen slide is not and does t drop into place, no spacers. But basically, you should be able to look at them and see if the wall and floor are at the same level.

I think I tried looking at that area, and it may be covered with some sort of 1/4” or so plastic sheeting. Looks like plastic cardboard.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by cgraydotcom

Because you started right off questioning my legitimacy because if I couldn’t tow my unit, how was it possible that I took it back to the dealer. Which was irrelevant to the situation. You set the tone with your input, which ultimately, didn’t do much anyway. And then implied that even tho I came here for advice, I must be withholding important information. Yep, came here to lie. And when I reversed your implication, you had to go back thru all of my responses to find anything negative so you could bail out. I’m glad you are done, you didn’t help. I’m thankful the rest replied with legitimate answers. I would say I hope you have a nice day, but I would be lying. I don’t really care if you do.

I never "questioned your legitimacy". I said I was confused because you made contradictory statements and I was seeking clarification in an attempt to help you. Obviously, if you can't tow it then I wasn't going to suggest taking it to a trailer shop (not an RV dealer) and have the frame checked out. I'm bailing out of the conversation because of your attitude which is evident in your last line.

I do wish you well in finding a resolution to your issues.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by cgraydotcom

Here’s what I think. See if anyone agrees.

The left I-beam is bowed around 4”. This causes about a 4” drop to the back left corner.

If you lean the right side to the right about 2” in the front, the rear will be the same 2” off in the opposite direction.

The floor will measure level in the center, and gradually get worse as you travel front or back, maxing out in the opposite corners. You can’t get to the worst locations because of cabinetry and closets. So you can’t detect how bad it really is except from the outside.

They agreed to level the countertop, probably in that back left corner where it drops the most.

The drop also pulls the fridge doors towards the low side.

The back AC unit does not work well. Probably because it’s not level.

The slides stick moving in and out. Because it’s twisted.

This would have been difficult to detect at the dealer without a full leveling inspection. And who does that?

But when it’s sitting on its wheels, it looks just like the picture.

Ive been getting the runaround for 9 months with the last 3 being Keystone because they think it’s ok.

It’s not ok. How do I get them to resolve this?

I suppose it’s possible, but I’ve never seen an I beam bow like that. Have you checked the measurement of the frame to ground to confirm your suspicion. I personally don’t know how you would do that based on what you’re describing, I also don’t see how the floor could be level if the frame is bent since it sits directly on the frame. Maybe the floor is bent where it over hangs the frame……

The outriggers are outside the frame, shouldn’t be anything covering them since there wouldn’t be anything to attach a cover to. That’s also where your slide hardware and leveling jacks are mounted.
Again, a good visual inspection of the floor, frame, wall relationship could reveal a lot. The way the Alpine is constructed, the floor sits on the frame, the walls sit on the outriggers and are fastened to the side/end of the floor. Since it’s a wide body, the walls are outside the floor not on it. I think it would be more probable that the walls/outriggers are low on one side than the frame being bent/twisted. Again, the fact that the floor is level and it sits directly on the frame tells me the frame is level. Since the walls are attached separately and not directly to each would make me suspect the wall/attachment point.

If you really suspect that it’s the frame, I’d contact Lippert directly and see if they will engage. It’s their frame and their warranty issue.

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I never "questioned your legitimacy". I said I was confused because you made contradictory statements and I was seeking clarification in an attempt to help you. Obviously, if you can't tow it then I wasn't going to suggest taking it to a trailer shop (not an RV dealer) and have the frame checked out. I'm bailing out of the conversation because of your attitude which is evident in your last line.

I do wish you well in finding a resolution to your issues.

You should figure out when you speak to someone in a derogatory tone, they may respond back to you in a similar way. There was a much better way to confirm my ability to take it elsewhere than making it seem I was being untruthful. Specifying that I had no way to tow it was just letting you know it does not move, therefore the issues I have are not because of road use. Finding assistance to return it to the dealer for inspection should not be that confusing, but I will be more clear in the future. I would lean towards your last statement tho, that rubbed me wrong, where you said “shame on you”, as if I am humiliated for acting in a foolish manner for accepting my $100k RV without inspecting the straightness of the frame. Stupid me for not assuming that was good.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by cgraydotcom

You should figure out when you speak to someone in a derogatory tone, they may respond back to you in a similar way. There was a much better way to confirm my ability to take it elsewhere than making it seem I was being untruthful. Specifying that I had no way to tow it was just letting you know it does not move, therefore the issues I have are not because of road use. Finding assistance to return it to the dealer for inspection should not be that confusing, but I will be more clear in the future. I would lean towards your last statement tho, that rubbed me wrong, where you said “shame on you”, as if I am humiliated for acting in a foolish manner for accepting my $100k RV without inspecting the straightness of the frame. Stupid me for not assuming that was good.

I think both of you should chalk this one up to miscommunication of the written word. Sometimes what we type is taken in a way other than what was intended when read by another person. This really isn’t getting you anywhere anyway.

[sourdough]

I find it hard to think that the frame is twisted 4". That's a 12" I beam that would have to be bent in perpendicular fashion - one or both. I would also think it would be hard for the floor to be twisted if the frame is not bent since it is mounted directly to it, then what?

It was suggested to take lots more measurements to try to pin what's what down and I agree. You said the location was level but that looks like a gravel pad. Having parked on literally hundreds of them they're not usually completely level and when 15k lbs. or so lands on them they do move. Trying to get accurate measurements from the frame to the ground might be next to impossible like that. The laser level only tells you that the trailer isn't level, not why. That could come from the jacks, the pad, both or ??

I'm thinking more measurements in various locations to try to isolate whatever it is but not sure how you do that without getting it out and putting it on some sort of slab.

[cgray3910rk]

sourdough

I’m not in agreement with Keystones determination that the floor is level. I’m basing that the box is mounted crooked on their inspection stating that it leans.

Let’s combine all pertinent info in one spot. Look at the first picture of the rear of the camper. Then the green laser across the closet doors. That’s the front. Then know in that state, we pushed the back left jack independently up, so the rear was level, and the front left jack leg was 4” off the ground. How does that happen if the frame is straight? No matter what surface it’s sitting on, something is wrong. If the surface was able to distort the frame that much, then it should have twisted it back to level and we would not be having this conversation. I would have locked it down and called it a day. But it didn’t. It pulled the front up off the ground.

No matter what it’s doing or why, Keystone said it’s not repairable and won’t make any resolution. That’s what I need help with. I think everyone here agrees it’s not right. I don’t know if we need to pinpoint what that us. Its 1 year old with a 3 year warranty. How can I make them do something? Is this enough to hire a lawyer? Would anyone here do that, or not do that, if this was your RV?

[bsmith0404]

I thinking you want to get any resolution you need to pinpoint what the problem actually is. To me, none of it makes any sense, even what keystone said about leveling the counter.

It’s easy to know if the floor/frame is level, go buy a carpenters bubble level, get the floor level on both N/S and E/W axis. Get a good, straight 2x4 and place it under the frame. Level the 2x4 (may have to shim one end or another). Measure the distance from the 2x4 to the frame. If everything is straight and level inside on the floor, it should be outside as well. Measure the drop of the front frame. Make sure the weld points to attach it to the main frame are the same (with what you’re describing front and rear differences, I’d suspect something wrong there more than a bent I beam. Measure the sidewall height from floor to ceiling on each side of the trailer. If the walls are mounted correctly they should be the same. If you can find the actual problem, dealing with Keystone to get it fixed will be a lot easier. If they won’t fix it, it’ll be a lot easier dealing with a lawyer if it comes to that. Not knowing the exact problem is a crap shoot. After all, I would want to make sure the correct issue is repaired.

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I thinking you want to get any resolution you need to pinpoint what the problem actually is. To me, none of it makes any sense, even what keystone said about leveling the counter.

It’s easy to know if the floor/frame is level, go buy a carpenters bubble level, get the floor level on both N/S and E/W axis. Get a good, straight 2x4 and place it under the frame. Level the 2x4 (may have to shim one end or another). Measure the distance from the 2x4 to the frame. If everything is straight and level inside on the floor, it should be outside as well. Measure the drop of the front frame. Make sure the weld points to attach it to the main frame are the same (with what you’re describing front and rear differences, I’d suspect something wrong there more than a bent I beam. Measure the sidewall height from floor to ceiling on each side of the trailer. If the walls are mounted correctly they should be the same. If you can find the actual problem, dealing with Keystone to get it fixed will be a lot easier. If they won’t fix it, it’ll be a lot easier dealing with a lawyer if it comes to that. Not knowing the exact problem is a crap shoot. After all, I would want to make sure the correct issue is repaired.

Sensible information. Thank you! I thought about hiring someone who specializes in that too. But don’t know what to look for. The dealer said the frame is off, and keystone said it’s not. So I want an independent person to evaluate it. But who?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by cgraydotcom

sourdough

I’m not in agreement with Keystones determination that the floor is level. I’m basing that the box is mounted crooked on their inspection stating that it leans.

Let’s combine all pertinent info in one spot. Look at the first picture of the rear of the camper. Then the green laser across the closet doors. That’s the front. Then know in that state, we pushed the back left jack independently up, so the rear was level, and the front left jack leg was 4” off the ground. How does that happen if the frame is straight? No matter what surface it’s sitting on, something is wrong. If the surface was able to distort the frame that much, then it should have twisted it back to level and we would not be having this conversation. I would have locked it down and called it a day. But it didn’t. It pulled the front up off the ground.

No matter what it’s doing or why, Keystone said it’s not repairable and won’t make any resolution. That’s what I need help with. I think everyone here agrees it’s not right. I don’t know if we need to pinpoint what that us. Its 1 year old with a 3 year warranty. How can I make them do something? Is this enough to hire a lawyer? Would anyone here do that, or not do that, if this was your RV?

You're obviously frustrated but as others have said, the job of identifying this problem is going to fall on you looks like. If Keystone has came out (I'm assuming from the factory) and said they didn't have an issue that is a dead end UNLESS you can come up with evidence that their assessment wasn't right - btdt. At this moment sounds like they've washed their hands of it and offered to straighten a counter top.

Where is your dealer in all this? They generally go to bat for me and I do "cleanup". Can they not take measurements or ?? to provide Keystone to validate that the frame is "off" definitively? I would recommend taking it to a frame shop but you have no way to take it and I doubt they have the equipment to bring to the field to assess the situation properly.

As far as lawyering up I would surely talk to whoever you are going to use as your reference that Keystone is wrong to see what it is they have and if it will stand up in court. You don't want to go in with the guy from the dealership and when questioned says "yeah, it looks crooked to me"; they will need something more concrete than that. Personally I would work with both the dealership and Keystone to see what they can do; escalate as appropriate. Do your homework on finding what's going on. I'm sure Keystone feels like most of us - this doesn't make sense. The unknown that could prove troublesome is the fact that you had it delivered and set up THEN said the frame/box is crooked.

[bsmith0404]

Here’s my though, I think it’s the box and here’s why. You pointed out the receiver hitch being off compared to the back wall. The receiver is mounted to the frame. It will be level/true to the frame. If the back wall is that far off from the receiver, it cannot be true to the frame (unless the receiver is bent). If the walls are off, messing with the leveling system to try to twist/tweak the frame to compensate is not going to fix your problem. You need to start with getting the floor level, end to end and side to side using a good carpenters level. I use a 4’ level when I check mine, you don’t need one that long, but I’d at least use a 2’. You can also look for gaps between then floor and the level to see if there’s any bows in the floor. Once the frame and floor are level, you can start checking side wall measurements. Are they the same height on each side, etc. I think it’s more likely that you have broken/bent outriggers on the walls than anything else. Good visual inspections and measurements will verify your problem. If it’s what I think it is, that’s fixable.

[ChuckS]

I just really don’t think this 12 inch drop frame is twisted 4 inches .. if at all..

I just have to ask has anyone bothered to look at the suspension hangers, springs, etc?

Also.. when the hydraulic six point level up system is operated in MANUAL MODE the Front LG DO NOT operate when the Left or Right side arrow is pressed..

Only the mid/rear leveler legs on the arrow side pressed receive pressure..

The Front LG on the LT side will rise and the LG on the RT side will compress slightly.. as a function of fluid dynamics

The front LG are connected in tandem and don’t move under hydraulic pressure when the LT or RT arrow is pressed in manual mode..

I am assuming this is the Lippert 6 point hydraulic system and if so the operation is exactly as I have stated..

The Front LG Hydac valve only opens during initial front to back leveling and then again after both LT and RT sides have achieved level and then the front to back makes a final touch up motion followed by a beep on the panel and the word Success

If this is the Equalizer System coming out on the newest alpines the operation is still the same

Again,, I would look at the suspension even though the frame is what is being jacked via the six hydraulic pistons

I would also have to check the installation of the rear remote sensor located under the coroplast dead center of axles and slightly behind the rear axle.. if this is loose or nit mounted properly it will cause all sorts of issues

All that said if in fact the frame turns out to actually be twisted it would be the first Alpine I’ve heard of that has incurred this issue

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Also.. when the hydraulic six point level up system is operated in MANUAL MODE the Front LG DO NOT operate when the Left or Right side arrow is pressed..

Only the mid/rear leveler legs on the arrow side pressed receive pressure..

The Front LG on the LT side will rise and the LG on the RT side will compress slightly.. as a function of fluid dynamics

The front LG are connected in tandem and don’t move under hydraulic pressure when the LT or RT arrow is pressed in manual mode..

I don’t know about all of that, I can tell you for fact that my front landing gear move with the rear when I press the left or right side. Weather that’s from hydraulic pressure pushing them out or then extending on their own to match the rear (I’ve never seen a hydraulic ram do that) I don’t know. I do know they extend with the rears when I push one side or the other. That makes sense to me since if I’m raising or lowering a side, I want the entire side to move. If not, I’m twisting the chassis One thing for certain is that the front jack is not lifting off the ground. And I have extended mine to the point I get an excessive angle error when I used the jacks to lift the tires for bearing maintenance.

[cgray3910rk]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I just really don’t think this 12 inch drop frame is twisted 4 inches .. if at all..

I just have to ask has anyone bothered to look at the suspension hangers, springs, etc?

Also.. when the hydraulic six point level up system is operated in MANUAL MODE the Front LG DO NOT operate when the Left or Right side arrow is pressed..

Only the mid/rear leveler legs on the arrow side pressed receive pressure..

The Front LG on the LT side will rise and the LG on the RT side will compress slightly.. as a function of fluid dynamics

The front LG are connected in tandem and don’t move under hydraulic pressure when the LT or RT arrow is pressed in manual mode..

I am assuming this is the Lippert 6 point hydraulic system and if so the operation is exactly as I have stated..

The Front LG Hydac valve only opens during initial front to back leveling and then again after both LT and RT sides have achieved level and then the front to back makes a final touch up motion followed by a beep on the panel and the word Success

If this is the Equalizer System coming out on the newest alpines the operation is still the same

Again,, I would look at the suspension even though the frame is what is being jacked via the six hydraulic pistons

I would also have to check the installation of the rear remote sensor located under the coroplast dead center of axles and slightly behind the rear axle.. if this is loose or nit mounted properly it will cause all sorts of issues

All that said if in fact the frame turns out to actually be twisted it would be the first Alpine I’ve heard of that has incurred this issue

I moved the left side up to get the back level, and the front was way off, with both LG on the ground. I brought the left back down. When I hit the left and rear buttons up at the same time, the rear leveled and pulled the left front LG 4” off the ground. I do not know what operates under what buttons, but I do know that happened. You provided a great deal of information and I trust that you know what you are talking about way more than I. But please explain when I ran that back jack up to the point the rear was level, that it pulled that front foot off the ground. This was as I was speaking to the service manager at the dealership. He told me how to operate each jack independently. I did and that’s what happened.