Boondocking with a generator

[DominickP53]

Does Keystone publish a wattage list for RV appliances?
We are boondocking at a friends camp in the Allegheny Natl forest in PA soon where we will be running on a Propane 3500w generator. NO SHORE POWER.
I want to determine if I can run our AC, refrigerator, water pump, hot water heater, and a few lights.
Our Solarflex 200 installed came detached on our first trip with our new 5W. It’s out until dealer can repair.
Will bring a battery charger to trickle charge battery when AC and heavy loads are off.
There is a well we can use to fill our fresh water tank. Should I bring my own water from home?
Any advice on preparing for our weekend boondocking trip.
Thanks
Dom

[bsmith0404]

The biggest issue you normally run into with 3500 watt gens is that they run at around 2700 and peak at 3500. Even at 3000 watts, that’s only about 25 amps 3000/120=25. Most of the items you list are 12v and will run off the converter. Your converter is going to pull around 7 amps. So if your gen is running at 3000 and you have 25 amps, your converter is pulling 7, that’s only 18 amps left for everything else. When the AC tried to turn on, it’ll pull more than the gen is producing. The gen will respond by increasing power, but typically, that takes longer than the RV circuit will allow and the breaker will trip. You could probably get the AC to start if you turned off all of the other breakers in the RV, including the inverter. Once the AC is running and the power draw drops down to around 15 amps, you can probably turn the converter breaker back on. In reality, a 4500 watt gen is the better way to go. They normally run around 3700 and produce 30 amps of power.

[JRTJH]

There's a lot of unanswered questions in your post that would dramatically change the capabilities of that generator to provide power.

First, you say that you'll be at a friend's cabin with NO SHORE POWER. If you're sharing that generator with the cabin, then the best you can expect is to be able to use the trailer converter to keep the batteries charged, and depending on what the cabin is using, possibly not even enough power "left over" to even run the converter/charger in the trailer. If you're not sharing the generator, then you'll need to look at the generator output to determine what power you have available. If the 3500 watts is "peak power" then it's probably only going to produce around 3000-3100 watts "sustained.

You can tell the output by the rating. It will either be 4000/3500 or it may be 3500/3000. The smaller number will be the sustained (continuous) available power. That's the number you'll need to follow.

Used to be that the answer was fairly simple. Run the refrigerator and water heater on gas only and turn off the air conditioner to run the microwave. But on today's RV's with residential refrigerators, 12 volt compressor refrigerators and larger BTU air conditioners/multiple air conditioners, that's no longer true.

In the old days, a 3500 watt "sustained power generator" would provide pretty much all the power a 30 amp trailer required. That's no longer true with all the increased electrical demand in modern RV's....

Then, if you're sharing the generator with the cabin, all bets are off.....

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

In the old days, a 3500 watt "sustained power generator" would provide pretty much all the power a 30 amp trailer required. That's no longer true with all the increased electrical demand in modern RV's......

A 3500 watt sustained power gen produces 29 amps, that’s basically the same as being plugged into 30 amp shore power. If it’s a 30 amp trailer, it doesn’t matter what the new configuration of electrical items is.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

A 3500 watt sustained power gen produces 29 amps, that’s basically the same as being plugged into 30 amp shore power. If it’s a 30 amp trailer, it doesn’t matter what the new configuration of electrical items is.

I think the part of my post that you quoted says EXACTLY what you just posted.....

Except if the generator is a 3500/3000 watt and he's reading peak power output and/or sharing it with the cabin....

I agree with you, IF the generator is a 4000/3500 rating, essentially it's the same as a 30 amp trailer input... But, just because the generator has a 3500 watt rating doesn't mean that is going to be the "sustained output rating"....

And, IF he is sharing the generator with the cabin, all bets are off....

If he has a 12 VDC refrigerator or a residential refrigerator, then he can't "use those items and turn them off to manage power consumption in a 30 amp trailer the same way we used to do it by turning off the electric water heater and setting the refrigerator to GAS only. Why do you feel the need to twist my words to say the same thing in a different phrasing???? Geesh !!!!!

[flybouy]

First question is the ACTUAL capability of the generator. If the generator is a dual fuel ( gasoline and propane) then odds are the rated output is for gasoline and running on propane will net you about 80 to 85% of that. If the rated max output is 3,500 then as has been stated the "continuous" amps will be much less. Next part is what's the elevation of the campsite? If you are up in the mountains above about 1,000'the output will also decrease due to altitude.

If at all possible get the model's number of the generator and look it up to get all the ratings. Also ask if you'll be sharing the generator while it's running. A 30 amp trailer is rated to handle 3,600 wats of power (120V X 30A = 3,600W). The A/C requires the most wattage followed by the electric heating element in the water heater.

As to your question on well water how could anyone know without testing it? When was the last time it was tested and by whom? I'm very leary of drinking or orthwise consuming water from unknown sources. At the very LEAST use a quality water filter when filling the fresh water tank. And then I wouldn't drink it, cook with it, or brush my teeth with it. Some may argue that many (if not most) campgrounds supply well water. Here's the difference. A campground should be required by the health dept. to test and treat well water and maintain records of this. Harry the homeowner doesn't do this and often wrongly thinks if it smells and tastes ok then it's good. That "clean mountain water" can easily be polluted from coal mines, a bad septic tank, illegal dumping or many other sources from MILES away without knowledge.

[DominickP53]

Hi John,
We won't be sharing our power with friends. There cabin has power. But they don't have an electrical setup for a 50/30 amp RV.
Our generator is a Champion 3500/3200. I like Brent's thoughts of adding more wattage. The Champion can run in parallel with another Champion 3500. Do you think this would be a good strategy to maintain my investment and just purchase a second 3500?
I am a little embarrased to say I don't know exactly which appliances run on DC. I think the refrigerator runs on DC/Propane. Not sure about Water Pump and Water Heater. Is this available on Keystones website? I don't have an "as built" with all the appliances and their power source. That would be helpful if I could get my hands on one. Thanks for your thoughts.

[DominickP53]

Originally Posted by flybouy

First question is the ACTUAL capability of the generator. If the generator is a dual fuel ( gasoline and propane) then odds are the rated output is for gasoline and running on propane will net you about 80 to 85% of that. If the rated max output is 3,500 then as has been stated the "continuous" amps will be much less. Next part is what's the elevation of the campsite? If you are up in the mountains above about 1,000'the output will also decrease due to altitude.

If at all possible get the model's number of the generator and look it up to get all the ratings. Also ask if you'll be sharing the generator while it's running. A 30 amp trailer is rated to handle 3,600 wats of power (120V X 30A = 3,600W). The A/C requires the most wattage followed by the electric heating element in the water heater.

As to your question on well water how could anyone know without testing it? When was the last time it was tested and by whom? I'm very leary of drinking or orthwise consuming water from unknown sources. At the very LEAST use a quality water filter when filling the fresh water tank. And then I wouldn't drink it, cook with it, or brush my teeth with it. Some may argue that many (if not most) campgrounds supply well water. Here's the difference. A campground should be required by the health dept. to test and treat well water and maintain records of this. Harry the homeowner doesn't do this and often wrongly thinks if it smells and tastes ok then it's good. That "clean mountain water" can easily be polluted from coal mines, a bad septic tank, illegal dumping or many other sources from MILES away without knowledge.

I agree with your thoughts about well water. So, do most bring some fresh water in their tanks from home when going out for a weekend? Thanks

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Why do you feel the need to twist my words to say the same thing in a different phrasing???? Geesh !!!!!

Sorry John, just not seeing how I twisted your words. You said in the old days a 3500 watt sustained power generator was all that was needed to run a 30 amp trailer. And that it’s no longer the case with all the new power demands of new RVs. All I pointed out is that it is the same, a 30 amp trailer is still a 30 amp trailer.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by DominickP53

Hi John,
We won't be sharing our power with friends. There cabin has power. But they don't have an electrical setup for a 50/30 amp RV.
Our generator is a Champion 3500/3200. I like Brent's thoughts of adding more wattage. The Champion can run in parallel with another Champion 3500. Do you think this would be a good strategy to maintain my investment and just purchase a second 3500?
I am a little embarrased to say I don't know exactly which appliances run on DC. I think the refrigerator runs on DC/Propane. Not sure about Water Pump and Water Heater. Is this available on Keystones website? I don't have an "as built" with all the appliances and their power source. That would be helpful if I could get my hands on one. Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes you can parallel two “like” gens together to increase your power. As for understanding what runs on what, if it plugs into a wall outlet, microwave, TV, AC (hardwired) count on it being 120v. If not, furnace, lights, water heater, it’s typically 12v. A good way to understand the differences, if it works off the battery when you’re not plugged in, it’s 12v. If it doesn’t work, it’s 120v.

[flybouy]

I would use the well water (after running thru a filter) for everything but consumption. We don't boondock but do keep about 10 gals or so in the tank for washing hands and toilet use on the road. But this is known safe water. We use bottled water for making coffee and tea when connected to campground water.

A little background on me. I worked in the development dept at a couple of restaurant chains over many years. Development is typically the real-estate and construction departments and often includes facility management. I have approved and overseen the construction and major improvements of literally hundreds of restaurants across the country. Water quality testing (yes, even city water supply) was tested regularly when the restaurant's water filters and water softener was serviced. This testing was done by an independent lab and not not the water service company.

These regular water quality tests were USUALLY ok. Every now and again, typically in some small town or water company, an alarming report would come back. So I guess knowing what COULD be in the water and what it can do to the human body makes me more cautious than most.

[jxnbbl]

If you post pics or model numbers of AC and fridge most of the this can be answered easily. But will probably come with caveats.



My understanding is that since you have the solarflex 200 it probably is a 12V fridge and not a combo propane/12V fridge. This was a whole conversation that I had when I got my latest trailer...it was "suppose to be solarflex" but instead was just solar prepped. Which means that it was a 12V fridge but no solar panels. The resolution is that I was credited the cost to install the equivalent of a solarflex 200.


I successfully get along with a champion 2500 dual fuel. BUT I only heat hot water with propane and tape over the electrical HWH switch so someone doesn't turn it on by mistake, and ONLY have breakers on/off for combinations that "work". ( Example - microwave breaker is always off when the AC breaker is on.)


As flybouy stated propane vs gasoline will make a difference. I have NOT run propane on my new trailer.


For me, I don't need the converter as my solar panels take care of charging the batteries...what does "Our Solarflex 200 installed came detached" mean?

[JRTJH]

Dom,

I can't find the specs for a Champion generator rated "dual fuel 3500/3200" That doesn't mean there isn't one, just that I can't find the specs for it.

The closest I can find is an open frame (contractor generator) rated this way:

GAS-- 3400 surge/3100 sustained
PROPANE-- 3060 surge/2790 sustained

The Manual for that generator states that output power is reduced 3.5% for every 1000' of altitude.

So, assuming your generator has similar output as this one AND you're running it on propane at 3000' elevation, you're looking at a reduction of 10.5%, giving you an estimated output of 2738 surge/2497 sustained.

2500 watts is 20.8 amps. That MAY be enough to operate your air conditioner and the converter/charger, but I'd worry about voltage drop and burning out the compressor in the air conditioner on a hot day....

If it were my trailer, I'd not use that single generator and honestly, if the cabin has a 20 amp outlet, plugging into that isn't a lot different than running the generator on propane at altitude. Neither will power the trailer for the "long haul weekend".

buying a second generator to parallel may be an option, but that may cost nearly as much as just buying a single generator in the 5500/4500 watt range. To be honest, I don't think I'd buy another generator for a single trip. I think being in the mountains, during the day, you'll probably be outside anyway, and at night, with the windows in the trailer open and a fan or two to move the air, it should be cool enough to sleep without the air. You really don't want to run a generator overnight anyway, mainly because of the noise and the risk of starting a fire or annoying the cabin occupants with all the extra noise while they're trying to sleep.

I think I'd look into the possibility of setting the trailer close enough to the cabin to plug into an available 20 amp outlet, set the refrigerator and water heater to gas, skip using the air conditioner and the microwave, open the windows, turn on a fan and enjoy the "mountain breezes"....

[DominickP53]

Are there downsides to running a second generator in parallel. This would give me 6000 running watts as I calculate. My refrigerator runs on

[DominickP53]

Thanks for input. The front straps/screws on my SolarFlex 200 stripped out of the roof and it flipped over on its face. The panels were shattered and them frame came apart putting a quarter size gash in my roof. I don't know the cause of how the straps and screws came out. My only thoughts are wind (50 mph)during a storm at our home. Or, when the techs installed a second A/C unit in the front unbolted it and didn't bolt it back properly. One thing I'm positive about is that I didn't hit a low hanging wire or overhang.
Fortunately, the dealer thru Keystone are replacing the Solarflex.

[bsmith0404]

Went back through your post, the only thing I haven’t seen discussed yet (I may have missed it) is your holding tanks. You say you can fill the fresh tank off the well, but do you have some way to dump the black and gray tanks? I know some people will allow the gray to dump on the ground. That can be debated if it’s right or wrong (personally, I don’t see it as much different than dumping the bucket out after I wash the car). You didn’t say how long you will be staying there or how big your tanks are. A black tank can fill pretty quick, especially if you’re using a lot of water when you flush, like you should be.

[flybouy]

The question of 120 vac vs 12 vdc.

The 120 VAC system typically consists of:
A/C compressors
Wall outlets (duplex receptacles) just like your house has
Television if plugged into a wall outlet
Fireplace if so equipped
Refrigerator if it's a RV gas/electric combo unit
Water heater, if it has an electric option
Converter that changes 120 vac to 12 vdc to supply the system anmd charge the battery(s).

The 12 vdc system which includes the battery(s) and the output of the converter:
The furnace blower motor and control board
The control boards for the water heater, A/C units, & refrigerator.
The stereo and the outside tv antenna booster and KeyTV system if so equipped.
The water pump.
The tongue jack if powered, or the front jack legs on a fifth wheel..
power stabilizers or "leveling systems" either directly or by running a pump if hydraulic.
Slides either direct or via a hydraulic pump
Vent fans in ceiling or range hoods
Power awnings
All lights inside and out

There may be some outlets marked inverter which if equipped, should be powered by an on board inverter powered by the battery and when on shore power the inverter is bypassed with power coming directly from the shore power.

This list is typical. There may be different appliances and setups but I think this covers the majority of units.

[bsmith0404]

No downside to running in parallel. The upside is your trailer is 50 amp, you can plug directly into the 50 amp plug on the parallel kit instead of reducing down to a 30 amp plug. It’s still not the same as being plugged into shore power, but you’ll did that you can power more items in the RV. There still could be some things that don’t work, but that’ll depend on how your RV is wired.

[DominickP53]

I'll have a dump station nearby. I have a Rhino that I strap to my ladder. Can't always rely on the Honey Wagon. And, I am not to proud or incapable of cleaning up after myself. We are only going to be there two nights. Our fresh water tank is 60 gallons. Was thinking of filling it half way. Thanks for your questions and thoughts.

[flybouy]

Your going for 2 days and considering a second generator? Seems like a lot for a 2 day stay. You speak about a honey wagon. I thought you were staying buy a freind's cabin. I'm confused.