PLEASE Discuss Weights and Towing

[flybouy]

Danny, to get back to your original post.

Here's what I do when in a cg. Let's say I'm walking the dog and see a 1/2 ton infront of an obviously inappropriately sized trailer and I know they towed it in. If they are outside I'll typically converse by saying "Nice trailer". "How does she tow?" Depending on the "read" I get depends on if I decide to continue or walk on.

If they seem receptive I'll say something like " I tried towing my travel trailer with our 1/2 ton and it just wasn't safe." Then I'll explain how I was unaware of the weight restrictions on our truck and how I was totally unaware of all that until someone explained it to me. If they are still "receptive" or ask questions then I'll invite them to come over to our site and "I'll be happy to show you where I found this information on our truck and our trailer" and typically I'll add how suprised I was to find out my new trailer was too much for the truck.

This has worked for me several times. I think it "lowers" their skepticism and reassures them that I'm not looking to see their information or have some other nefarious motive. Sometimes they'll say ok and follow me, some will say no need, show me on mine, and some will say no thanks "I'm good". For the latter I'll say have a good day and walk away. No regrets, no further thoughts. I tried and that's all I can do.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

The other guys lawyer if in an accident!

Yeah, there’s lawyers on both sides along with experts that can speak to truck capabilities. What if I’ve upgraded the rear springs to 3500 springs making it exactly the same as a SRW 3500, does that make it safe or only if I get the sticker to certify it?

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Yeah, there’s lawyers on both sides along with experts that can speak to truck capabilities. What if I’ve upgraded the rear springs to 3500 springs making it exactly the same as a SRW 3500, does that make it safe or only if I get the sticker to certify it?

Unless it's recertified it doesn't mean a thing.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Unless it's recertified it doesn't mean a thing.

There lies a problem. A sticker doesn’t change capabilities.

Of course, the internet is full of lawyers that have never been to college. Just like everyone that says you’ll get a fine if you go through scales over payload. I transported RVs, been through scales many times, they check registration weight not door sticker payload. Im not here to argue so I’ll just say it is what it is.

[wiredgeorge]

Many folks are addicted to taking out loans for that which they cannot really afford. They bought that new Ram 1500 Bighorn and are making sizeable payments; go to the RV dealer after doing "research" that says a Bighorn can pull 17000 lbs (or whatever) and sign on the dotted line for that 17K lb. RV.

Sales guys says good to go, truck brochure says good to go... heck the manufacturer may ever call the huge RV a 1/2 Ton Towable model. These folk then show up here or another RV forum and folks tell them they are seriously overloaded.

Already upside down on the new Bighorn and new camper and thus the trip down denial begins. A few are financially able to get a bigger truck or smaller camper but most folks are not able to eat the depreciation and will argue till the cows come home that their air bags and LT tires have fixed the problem. Which party in this mess should be responsible? Guess the person paying the tab each month has the most stake but will usually just rationalize and tow overloaded. They will generally disappear from a forum like this one or yell about the "Weight Police" whenever they can jump into a thread.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

There lies a problem. A sticker doesn’t change capabilities.

Of course, the internet is full of lawyers that have never been to college. Just like everyone that says you’ll get a fine if you go through scales over payload. I transported RVs, been through scales many times, they check registration weight not door sticker payload. Im not here to argue so I’ll just say it is what it is.

DOT regulations do not apply to a not for hire drivers. Anyone involved in civil litigation have other considerations . Anyone that drives for a living should understand that any modifications done will not increase the GVW without it being recertified. And while I'm certianly not an attorney, I can tell you that if I or my family were injured or killed by someone towing grossly overweight that MY attorney would be explaining this to a jury. You can deny, infer, or ignore. It really is imaterial to me. You do what you want.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by flybouy

DOT regulations do not apply to a not for hire drivers. Anyone involved in civil litigation have other considerations . Anyone that drives for a living should understand that any modifications done will not increase the GVW without it being recertified. And while I'm certianly not an attorney, I can tell you that if I or my family were injured or killed by someone towing grossly overweight that MY attorney would be explaining this to a jury. You can deny, infer, or ignore. It really is imaterial to me. You do what you want.

I’ve driven commercial, I’ve owned a dually, I understand stickers and weights and truck classes and all of it. I’m not saying people should or shouldn’t tow over weight. Im just tired of people coming on this forum and every other RV and truck forum out there and telling everyone they need to have a Kenworth to tow a pop up. Everyone talks about lawyers and people being sued, yet I’ve never seen a single reference to an actual case. People always talk about if you get weighed you’ll get a fine, yet personal RVs don’t have to stop at scales, and even commercial transporters, like I was, don’t get checked for payload, they get checked to see if they’re over 26,000 lbs.. I wish people would just present facts and stop with the scare tactics.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I’ve driven commercial, I’ve owned a dually, I understand stickers and weights and truck classes and all of it. I’m not saying people should or shouldn’t tow over weight. Im just tired of people coming on this forum and every other RV and truck forum out there and telling everyone they need to have a Kenworth to tow a pop up. Everyone talks about lawyers and people being sued, yet I’ve never seen a single reference to an actual case. People always talk about if you get weighed you’ll get a fine, yet personal RVs don’t have to stop at scales, and even commercial transporters, like I was, don’t get checked for payload, they get checked to see if they’re over 26,000 lbs.. I wish people would just present facts and stop with the scare tactics.

Well we don't always get what we wish for. I wish some folks would stop overexaggerat about folks telling "everyone they need to have a Kenworth to tow a pop up." I love facts, so far I haven't seen many.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Well we don't always get what we wish for. I wish some folks would stop overexaggerat about folks telling "everyone they need to have a Kenworth to tow a pop up." I love facts, so far I haven't seen many.

That’s called a hyperbole

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

That’s called a hyperbole

Well bless your heart, thanks for the claification.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Yeah, there’s lawyers on both sides along with experts that can speak to truck capabilities. What if I’ve upgraded the rear springs to 3500 springs making it exactly the same as a SRW 3500, does that make it safe or only if I get the sticker to certify it?

Well because it may be more than springs!
Case in point if it was that easy why when in 2013 when Ram made changes to the 3500 SRW and increased the GVWR to 11,700# for the SB and 12,300# for the LB. Why didn’t Ford and GM raise the GVWR on their SRW one tons in 2014?
Why when Ford and Ram gave their 3500 DRW a 14,000 GVWR, why for about six year did GM sit at a GVWR of 13,025#.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I’ve driven commercial, I’ve owned a dually, I understand stickers and weights and truck classes and all of it. I’m not saying people should or shouldn’t tow over weight. Im just tired of people coming on this forum and every other RV and truck forum out there and telling everyone they need to have a Kenworth to tow a pop up. Everyone talks about lawyers and people being sued, yet I’ve never seen a single reference to an actual case. People always talk about if you get weighed you’ll get a fine, yet personal RVs don’t have to stop at scales, and even commercial transporters, like I was, don’t get checked for payload, they get checked to see if they’re over 26,000 lbs.. I wish people would just present facts and stop with the scare tactics.

I used to have a CDL, drive a big "commercial" truck for work, understand weights etc. Never owned a dually nor have I ever seen, or heard of, anyone told they need a Kenworth to tow a pop up. I've also seen MANY people towing commercially that were overweight, didn't have a clue nor did they care so that "qualification" doesn't mean much to me.

You said you're not saying whether people should, or shouldn't, tow overweight - IMO that's a problem and part of what perpetuates the situation I alluded to in my first post. You are basically saying whatever anyone does is OK - it's not.

The things that are said that you take as "scare" tactics should - scare folks. If a family has worked all their lives to finally get to "that place"; retirement, ability to travel in an RV and see the country, take the grandkids to have fun - do you really advocate that pulling a 14k 5th wheel trailer with a 1/2 ton pickup is fine? Maybe some spring over shocks, LT tires and air bags? When that combo takes a nose dive at 70mph (no one ever told them to drive it slower and those P tires will blow), hits a vehicle/tree/concrete abutment etc. is that OK or is it "scary" to think about? The latter I hope. First it should be scary to the owner/driver for himself and his family. Next, if that accident involved me and hurt me or mine you can rest assured that I would use my resources and pull out all the stops to make sure every cent they ever made again went into my pocket - that should be scary as well. Then there's the legal part (criminal charges) and no, the 26k lb. theshold is not the only thing that will be investigated. The other numbers often cited in this and other forums will come into play in a serious situation. Payload? Maybe. GVW/GAWRs? Absolutely.

I started this thread because new towers NEED to know those weights. They NEED to know the ramifications of being overloaded and the things that can happen. Telling new folks "Ah, you'll be alright, I read that those rear springs will support a lot more than they say" or "that 3/4 ton is really a 1 ton except for the badge" is the wrong answer. Why would anyone knowingly place themselves and their family in danger once told the facts? The vast majority won't. Some do, but then again, some folks drive on the highways and kill someone every day due to ignorance, negligence and stupidity - I think they say you can't fix that part.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well because it may be more than springs!
Case in point if it was that easy why when in 2013 when Ram made changes to the 3500 SRW and increased the GVWR to 11,700# for the SB and 12,300# for the LB. Why didn’t Ford and GM raise the GVWR on their SRW one tons in 2014?
Why when Ford and Ram gave their 3500 DRW a 14,000 GVWR, why for about six year did GM sit at a GVWR of 13,025#.

I can’t speak for all the combinations and years, but I can tell you for fact that a 2019 2500 Duramax is exactly the same as a 3500 with the exception of the additional above leaf helpers. The 2500 gas is different, it has a lighter rear axle. I guess my point is knowing the equipment. Saying someone is putting everyone in danger because of a door sticker isn’t always accurate, sometimes it is. Of course, I would never advocate pulling a big 5er with a 1/2 ton. That’s a much lighter frame and a much lighter duty truck. I’m also not going to jump on someone towing a 10k 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton diesel and tell them they need to go get a dually because they’re 200 lbs over their door sticker payload, but I’ve seen a lot of people do it.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I can’t speak for all the combinations and years, but I can tell you for fact that a 2019 2500 Duramax is exactly the same as a 3500 with the exception of the additional above leaf helpers. The 2500 gas is different, it has a lighter rear axle. I guess my point is knowing the equipment. Saying someone is putting everyone in danger because of a door sticker isn’t always accurate, sometimes it is. Of course, I would never advocate pulling a big 5er with a 1/2 ton. That’s a much lighter frame and a much lighter duty truck. I’m also not going to jump on someone towing a 10k 5th wheel with a 3/4 ton diesel and tell them they need to go get a dually because they’re 200 lbs over their door sticker payload, but I’ve seen a lot of people do it.

Id bet that those truck manufacturers also changed those labels on the door jambs to reflect those increased weights on every truck they built with those upgrades.
By adding springs, shocks &/or airbags may have increased the weight carrying abilities of that truck in your opinion, but the numbers that will be looked by at for legal reasons is are those posted on the truck, they don't care about the receipts you may have for the upgrades or your opinion on the trucks capacities.
No you don't need a Kenworth to tow a pop-up nor does everyone with a 5th wheel need a dually, but the only way to begin to know what's needed is by the tags on the truck door & the rv manufacturers label on the rv, not brochures, websites & especially not either salesperson nor someone saying the posted weights on either mean nothing.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Id bet that those truck manufacturers also changed those labels on the door jambs to reflect those increased weights on every truck they built with those upgrades.
By adding springs, shocks &/or airbags may have increased the weight carrying abilities of that truck in your opinion, but the numbers that will be looked by at for legal reasons is are those posted on the truck, they don't care about the receipts you may have for the upgrades or your opinion on the trucks capacities.
No you don't need a Kenworth to tow a pop-up nor does everyone with a 5th wheel need a dually, but the only way to begin to know what's needed is by the tags on the truck door & the rv manufacturers label on the rv, not brochures, websites & especially not either salesperson nor someone saying the posted weights on either mean nothing.

Can someone please post these laws they keep talking about. The NHTSA states they do not regulate modifications made to personally owned vehicles. Everyone keeps throwing the terms laws and legal around. I’d really like to read the laws. So far I haven’t been able to find any. The only thing I can find concerns licensing requirements based on GVWR or GCVWR and those are mainly centered around the 26,000 lb threshold for a CDL or in my state an exemption for personally owned RV.

[bsmith0404]

BTW, I’m not disagreeing with the OP. The case mentioned is not safe. A half ton truck is a capable tow vehicle if the weights are right, but it’s still a light frame truck. As long as other weights are ok, upgrading to LT tires over P tires can add stability. Personally, I’m not a fan of air bags. They’re too variable based on air pressure and can fail. You cannot add suspension upgrades to a half ton and turn it into a 3/4 ton, the frame, axles, brakes, everything is different. So I’m not at all saying people should not educate someone when they see this.

[linux3]

For a few years we have been looking at 1/2 Ton towables. 'Course I need a 2500HD to pull it.
2 local dealers said "You have the 62.L so you can pull anything." We ran away.
We have enough laws but I do agree that RV dealers need to assume some responsibility for their bad advice.

Local Chevy dealer offered big bucks for my truck. If I order a 2500HD I can't get heated seats or steering wheel because of chip shortage. Have you been to W NY?
RV dealers, car dealers..... Pretty much the same.

[Balvar24]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Well bless your heart, thanks for the claification.

Tow police, meet language police.


It's dangerous to tow more than your vehicle can handle.

But in reality, what can you do? When I see something I don't like and I can tell it's intentional, I try to stay away. Far, far away. I can't keep people from doing stupid things, but I can keep them from doing it to me.

As for salesmen, straight and unbiased salesmen are like the California Condor. We don't have them where I live.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Can someone please post these laws they keep talking about. The NHTSA states they do not regulate modifications made to personally owned vehicles. Everyone keeps throwing the terms laws and legal around. I’d really like to read the laws. So far I haven’t been able to find any. The only thing I can find concerns licensing requirements based on GVWR or GCVWR and those are mainly centered around the 26,000 lb threshold for a CDL or in my state an exemption for personally owned RV.

I can't, & don't intend to, look up or quote chapter & verse on any those laws, but I'm guessing, rather would bet $$, if you're overloaded & someone is hurt or, God forbid, killed you can bet your a## that there's a dozen personal injury lawyers standing ready willing & able to quote them to you in court as they sue your a## off. If this scenario would involve me & mine with someone obviously overloaded I'll be on the phone so fast it'd make head spin to one those lawyers.
I understand we as personal rv owners are not "required by law" to have any certification to tow, some states require it over 26000lbs, not "required" to stop at scales, but do have personal responsibilities to tow as safely as possible within the "posted" specs of both truck & rv not what someone thinks it should've been.
Some have a much different idea, or no idea, on how to accomplish that as this thread has indicated.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I can't, & don't intend to, look up or quote chapter & verse on any those laws, but I'm guessing, rather would bet $$, if you're overloaded & someone is hurt or, God forbid, killed you can bet your a## that there's a dozen personal injury lawyers standing ready willing & able to quote them to you in court as they sue your a## off. If this scenario would involve me & mine with someone obviously overloaded I'll be on the phone so fast it'd make head spin to one those lawyers.
I understand we as personal rv owners are not "required by law" to have any certification to tow, some states require it over 26000lbs, not "required" to stop at scales, but do have personal responsibilities to tow as safely as possible within the "posted" specs of both truck & rv not what someone thinks it should've been.
Some have a much different idea, or no idea, on how to accomplish that as this thread has indicated.

I’m definitely not going to argue that people get sued all the time for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But people upgrade items all the time to make them perform better or to make them safer. There’s a difference in being grossly negligent and consciously making a decision to upgrade your equipment. We do it all the time with tires on our RVs. My biggest gripe with this entire thread has not been the fact that people should be made aware, it’s with the fact that people can’t accept that you can upgrade your equipment to improve its ability and safety, a sticker on a door just as a tire sticker on the side of an RV doesn’t negate what has been done. I’ll admit some upgrades are suspect, but when you upgrade based on manufacturers specs and equipment….well, I’ll just leave it as opinions vary.