Ford techs - are you kidding

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by jkohler70

Only one Ford tech mentioned reliability. Most mentioned the "V8 power". In nearly every objective performance spec, the 3.5 EcoBoost is more powerful. If they had focused on reliability, I'd defer to their expertise. Instead they kept mentioning the power of the V8, which makes me wonder how much they really understand about the engines they work on....beyond what the computer tells them.

I think the techs are going by "seat of the pants" and not "paper" power. As some of the posts above illustrate, paper power (augmented) does not always get to the wheels like seat of the pants power. Reliability was mentioned for the V8, and if I recall without rewatching the video, ALL the techs nodded in agreement. When up and spinning turbos do a good job of augmenting power from a small displacement engine; when not spinning (idle/takeoff) they aren't producing anything so, yes, they do lag while they "pull their britches up" so to speak.

A V8 putting out the same, or almost the same, HP/torque specs as will usually always feel more powerful by the "seat of the pants" simply because you actually have all of that power and torque under your foot at any time unlike a small displacement V6 waiting for something to give it a shot of adrenaline so it can "act" stronger.

As far as reliability on twin turbo gas engines, the verdict is still out IMO. You didn't hear a single person attribute that trait to an EcoBoost.

[vampress_me]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The modern Ford EcoBoost turbos DO have turbo lag. I just rented a 2017 2.7 EcoBoost Edge for 3 weeks and the turbo does lag as in the old days....just a smoother kick in. The 3.5 does the same. Reviews of the engines speak to this;

"The 2016 Ford F150 with the 5.0L V8 and the 2016 Ford F150 with the 3.5L EcoBoost V6 are both very quick trucks. When you stomp the gas pedal from the stop, both trucks get away from the line with some urgency, although the naturally aspirated V8 and the twin turbocharged V6 offer that low-end power very differently. I wouldn’t call the EcoBoost V6 “laggy” as twin turbo engines go, but the V8 does offer a little more of the crisp, snappy acceleration right from the stop. However, where the V8 has a slight advantage in how hard it pulls when you first leave the line, the EcoBoost engine pulls harder up into and through the midrange – once boost has reached its peak levels." TorqueNews

This tester said he wouldn't call the lag...."laggy", but the cause of the more powerful engine to be sluggish from the gitgo is.....lag. Not a show stopper for some but there never the less. Just different ways to skin a cat.

Totally agree. Just drove my moms new 2017 Explorer around for a few days with the ecoboost engine. Definite lag. I was surprised because I expected it to pick up and go when you would step on the gas, such as when passing. Nope. There was a noticeable hesitation every time. I like the car, we would like to get one for the third row seating, but not that engine. Our 2012 V6 Escape has more immediate get up and go (of course, it's lighter weight, I assume).

[JRTJH]

From my research (I am not an engineer) every "boastful claim" about any engine includes a "power band chart" that shows how the engine produces power. Advertisers (Ford included) use those charts to show how superior their engine is.... What they fail to do is relate that chart power band to the "practical use of the vehicle".... In other words, what speed is the vehicle travelling when max power is produced? How is that power used (transmission) to tow a load? Is the economy "maximized" to meet CAFE standards or is the power "maximized" to perform work? Or is there a compromise: Try to please everybody and in the process, please nobody...
It doesn't help with performance if the maximum torque is produced at 5800 RPM and you have to be "screaming up the hill" in second gear and it doesn't help if the maximum torque is flat and you can't get into 4th gear because the transmission won't upshift (perceived power loss).

So, when you're climbing a hill, punch the accelerator and get an increased RPM with the associated increased torque, the "pants feel power"... When you're producing maximum torque (and burning maximum fuel) from 2400 RPM to 5400 RPM, when you punch the accelerator, you don't get a "pants feel the power" sensation, you just "keep climbing at max fuel and max torque"... So, no acceleration, no sensation of "we're making progress"....

I don't like the "drive sensations" in the Explorer and have commented several times to my DW that our next one won't be an EcoBoost, so we're waiting for Ford to offer either a diesel or a conventional "big V-6" or small V-8 in the Explorer, till then we'll keep the "old Escape" with its "antiquated engine" without the turbos.

[Outback 325BH]

Something people need to remember... in many industries, the people working on your stuff don't make enough to own your stuff. This means they have little or no actual experience with your stuff.

Not trying to be a jerk, just sayin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[B-O-B'03]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

... so we're waiting for Ford to offer either a diesel or a conventional "big V-6" or small V-8 in the Explorer, till then we'll keep the "old Escape" with its "antiquated engine" without the turbos.

I am afraid the days of gas V8s, with the cafe rules, are numbered, much to my chagrin.

I have always been a V8, rear wheel drive guy, but my options for that, going forward, are likely to be slim to none.

Oh and I love the instant torque and power from the positive displacement supercharger in my Cobra... Weeoh.

409 HP/392 FtLb @ the rear wheels, from a stock, 15 year old mustang

-Brian

[JRTJH]

I agree, the CAFE standards are killing big V8's (and most medium sized ones too)

My 'stang is only 13 (2005), so I can't get "antique plates" for a few more years. I do enjoy taking it out) on nice days, but since we live on a gravel road, I have to get the tractor out of the pole barn, grade the road and then shower and uncover my baby before we go for a ride. I know, I know, my DW shakes her head and says what you're thinking

[chuckster57]

Wonder how much longer I'll be allowed to drive my dinosaur. Finding anybody that even knows what an IDI is, is getting as rare as parts.

[JRTJH]

Chuck,

I had a 1971 Toyota FJ40 until last year. Parts were only a problem when I needed something Seems between using Chevy parts and Man-A-Fre I could get most of what I needed. I'm sure that there will be "after-market" parts available your your dinosaur for years to come. After all, they still sell parts for the 6.9L diesel which hasn't been made since 1987. You're good for a few more years, unless that left coast place does a proposition to make you leave the state because you own a relic

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by Javi

Actually, looking at the power curve the 5.0 makes it HP & torque at a lower rpm.... given the same gearing it will pull better at normal towing speeds... lock the 3.5 out of a couple of gears and then it'll win...

I think you are going to have to read the charts again. You have this this exactly backwards. The EB torque is almost completely flat from 2k to 4k RPMs. The EB HP comes on sooner and rises faster that the 5.slow.

[madmaxmutt]

The lag being described by many here isn't turbo lag. It is digital age lag from "gas pedal" to computer to throttle body. A good custom tune wipes it away almost completely.

There is also retraining of the computer. It learns how you drive and adjusts to it. If you jump in your mom's vehicle and drive it like you stole it for a week, she will wonder what happened when she gets it back. You can do a KAM reset, disconnect the batttery or try the throttle re-calibration (mixed results reported) and start over with your own driving habits.

[Johnny's Journey]

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

The lag being described by many here isn't turbo lag. It is digital age lag from "gas pedal" to computer to throttle body. A good custom tune wipes it away almost completely.

Very much true. Bandimere local ?

[madmaxmutt]

In Colorado Springs, but been there . . .

[B-O-B'03]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I agree, the CAFE standards are killing big V8's (and most medium sized ones too)

My 'stang is only 13 (2005), so I can't get "antique plates" for a few more years. I do enjoy taking it out) on nice days, but since we live on a gravel road, I have to get the tractor out of the pole barn, grade the road and then shower and uncover my baby before we go for a ride. I know, I know, my DW shakes her head and says what you're thinking

Mine is a 2003, I ordered it on Job 1 day, May 1 2002 and took delivery on Sept 26.

My sales guy had his wife bring me the paperwork and she drove me to the rail yard to pick it up, Put 75 miles on it, before I owned it







It is my dry days only car and lives in the garage... every takeoff brings a smile to my face still. When I die, my kids can fight over it, I'll never get rid of it.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

-Brian

[JRTJH]

Mine was the first 2005 in Alexandria, LA. I ordered it in 2003, long before the dealership could place the order. I had a 2002 and told the GM at the Ford dealership that I wanted to order a new Mustang. He said sure (thinking I mean a new 2003) When I explained what I wanted, he said he couldn't order it. We negotiated a deal that I would pay $500 over his price and he could keep the holdbacks. It was mid 2004 before Ford unlocked the order books for the new models and mine was the first order placed by the dealership for that region. When it came in, it was late on a Friday afternoon, the GM paid his prep crew overtime to get it ready for me, called me at the hospital and told me it was in and I could pick it up that day. Trust me when I say that those last few patients I saw made the afternoon one of the longest I'd ever had.... Anyway, I drove it home that day and it's been in the garage except for an occasional trip to town and a couple of "long distance runs" to a rally or to the classic car days. I've done the Autopalooza Woodward Dream Cruise the past 5 years but it is this weekend and we had too much other stuff going on so I couldn't drive down this weekend. I'll make it again next year, one way or another.

[vampress_me]

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

There is also retraining of the computer. It learns how you drive and adjusts to it. If you jump in your mom's vehicle and drive it like you stole it for a week, she will wonder what happened when she gets it back.

Mom was sitting right next to me the whole time. Besides, she knows I drive like my Dad. But you hit on the second thing I don't like about new vehicles, the computer deciding how you drive and changing itself. Give me a vehicle that drives the same, no matter who is behind the wheel. I don't like the "retraining" of the computer when someone else drives our Escape.

So for that, thank goodness for manual transmissions. I can drive it how I want to and it will shift when I want to. And that is why I love my "almost old" 1998 Mustang GT convertible. Might not be as fancy or fast as some of your guys' (and thank you for the pictures, I was drooling over them!), but it was my graduation present to myself from college. And the joke has been that I may be buried in it.

[JRTJH]

Lynette,

My DW bought an electric blue 98. It was her first sports car and she kept it almost 6 months before she realized she was sitting below the tops of tires on 18 wheelers. It wasn't but a couple of days before she bought a 99 Mountaineer so she was "higher in the seat" LOL I sure wish she'd have kept it, my red one and her blue one would mean we only need a white one.....

[vampress_me]

Too funny, John! I just got reminded of the lowness a couple of days ago. I finally pulled the car out of storage for this summer and headed down to the Cities. Passed a concrete truck with my top down, his hubcaps were at my eye level. That gave me a double-take because I had gotten used to driving the Escape and the truck. And there have been a few semis I swear I could have gone under without touching if I hadn't had a windshield...

Mine is black paint, black top, and black interior. Although, having 3 Mustangs in red, white, and blue sure wouldn't hurt my feelings any...

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by vampress_me

Mom was sitting right next to me the whole time. Besides, she knows I drive like my Dad. But you hit on the second thing I don't like about new vehicles, the computer deciding how you drive and changing itself. Give me a vehicle that drives the same, no matter who is behind the wheel. I don't like the "retraining" of the computer when someone else drives our Escape.

So for that, thank goodness for manual transmissions. I can drive it how I want to and it will shift when I want to. And that is why I love my "almost old" 1998 Mustang GT convertible. Might not be as fancy or fast as some of your guys' (and thank you for the pictures, I was drooling over them!), but it was my graduation present to myself from college. And the joke has been that I may be buried in it.

I know what you mean, but I have no interest in going back to the old days either. The computer "modern convenience" allows me to drive up the hill to 10K and down to the ocean without having to adjust anything on the vehicle (although the Honda generator won't do this). Computer controlled Tow/Haul mode keeps the transmission from looking for the right gear. The computer helps my twin turbo chargers pull a trailer like a freight train. I could do without the computer generated throttle lag, though. . .

[bsmith0404]

A couple points, yes there is still turbo lag on the trucks. The smaller turbos that are used in cars spool up much faster and the lag has been all but eliminated on some of them. The larger the turbo, the more air it takes to spool it up, the greater the lag.

As for the new cars and computers, I considered putting EFI on my 75 corvette when I built the motor, but I still enjoy old school stuff on an old school V8. I give it a comfortable mid altitude tune. Actually in NM I'm sitting at about 3500 feet so a good tune here still works well at sea level and at 8,000 ft. It may not perform as well at certain elevations, but 450 HP vs 400 HP is still fun to drive and moves along just fine.

[B-O-B'03]

Originally Posted by vampress_me

... Mine is black paint, black top, and black interior. Although, having 3 Mustangs in red, white, and blue sure wouldn't hurt my feelings any...

That is where my forum handle comes from Black on Black '03 It started on a car forum and I use it everywhere now.

My "wet days" car is my wife's 35th Anniversary '99 Mustang GT convertible, that I took over when she got the F150.

-Brian