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Old 08-25-2021, 07:22 AM   #1
Rocketsled
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Calling all weight polic: 5th wheel question

The Chevy towing guide calls out 5th wheel and gooseneck towing as separate from bumper pulling, and I know (yes I know, oh how I know) that we talk about the yellow payload sticker being the gospel for towing. (And in this fantasy, the trailer I’m lusting after is 750 lbs heavier at the pin than my whole payload)

But I thought the whole benefit of a 5th wheel was that it was locating all the weight on the rear axle (or nearly all of it, as geometry and safety allows). GM doesn’t even specify a pin weight on the 5th wheel/gooseneck charts, saying in a footnote that it should be 15% of the trailer weight.

It’s still that payload sticker, eh?
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Old 08-25-2021, 07:30 AM   #2
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I think I’ll stay out of this one other than to say that the accepted pin weight percentage standard in the RV industry is still 22%, not 15%.
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Old 08-25-2021, 07:34 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketsled View Post
The Chevy towing guide calls out 5th wheel and gooseneck towing as separate from bumper pulling, and I know (yes I know, oh how I know) that we talk about the yellow payload sticker being the gospel for towing. (And in this fantasy, the trailer I’m lusting after is 750 lbs heavier at the pin than my whole payload)

But I thought the whole benefit of a 5th wheel was that it was locating all the weight on the rear axle (or nearly all of it, as geometry and safety allows). GM doesn’t even specify a pin weight on the 5th wheel/gooseneck charts, saying in a footnote that it should be 15% of the trailer weight.

It’s still that payload sticker, eh?
See you have been here awhile and have likely read the zillions of threads on the numbers involved with a fifth wheel. I also note you have no signature and your tow vehicle isn't listed in your profile. Your bumper pull toy hauler has a gross weight of 13K lbs and the accepted guidance for bumper pull campers is about 13 percent of the gross weight and the accepted guidance for a fifth wheel (you may be contemplating) is 23 percent. Not sure why you needed to ask or gave us Chevy specs from a brochure. Perhaps if you quit tap dancing and said what it is you need to know if you are thinking of a new camper and listed your current tow vehicle and its payload you would get a straight answer.
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Old 08-25-2021, 07:42 AM   #4
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You will rarely find a 5th Wheel Camping type trailer that puts down less than 20% of the trailer weight on the hitch, via the pin. 21%, 22%, and 23% are a lot more common numbers, and once in a while you will see some that may go up to 25%. So if Chevy/GM is saying 15%, they simply do not have a clue on reality. Imagine that, someone in Corp. that doesn't know their butt from a hole in the ground!
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Old 08-25-2021, 07:47 AM   #5
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See you have been here awhile and have likely read the zillions of threads on the numbers involved with a fifth wheel. I also note you have no signature and your tow vehicle isn't listed in your profile. Your bumper pull toy hauler has a gross weight of 13K lbs and the accepted guidance for bumper pull campers is about 13 percent of the gross weight and the accepted guidance for a fifth wheel (you may be contemplating) is 23 percent. Not sure why you needed to ask or gave us Chevy specs from a brochure. Perhaps if you quit tap dancing and said what it is you need to know if you are thinking of a new camper and listed your current tow vehicle and its payload you would get a straight answer.
Pause. This is a hypothetical conversation. Does payload dictate in all cases, bumper-pull and 5th wheel? Because the official documentation from the vehicle manufacturer is vague.

This is not “can I get by with my current maxed out rig”. There is no tap dancing.

Pulling a trailer off your bumper is different than pulling it from an anchor point over the back axle.

Now. That said. The payload is for the tires and it’s specific to the vehicle as equipped. I could see that still being the specifier as too much weight pops your tires, regardless of where it sits on the truck.

But really…REALLY… it’s an attempt at improving my knowledge, not “I’m pulling a triple axle with my tundra, I’m good, right?”
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Old 08-25-2021, 07:49 AM   #6
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Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?
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Old 08-25-2021, 08:17 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rocketsled View Post
Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?
In 99.999% of the time, the truck's available payload capacity will be the limiting factor for a 5th wheel camper.......not nearly as much for tow behind campers.

And just so you know, the order of progression for overload goes like this.
First, when you add enough weight to the truck, you will reach the payload number.
Second...if you go over the payload number, you automatically go over the GVWR of the truck.
Next is the Axle ratings.....if you keep adding weight to the truck, you will eventually overload the axle.
Then the last thing....once you have overloaded the payload and the GVWR of the truck, and then the axle rating, you will eventually reach the tire load capacity. This is assuming that the tires are fully inflated to the max psi that is listed on the sidewall of the tire. This is also assuming that the tires are new enough that they still have the stated load capacity at the listed psi on the tire.
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Old 08-25-2021, 08:25 AM   #8
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That makes sense, and the huge gooseneck weight ratings are for situations where there’s not a lot of weight on the gooseneck, it’s all being carried by the axles of they hypothetical horse trailer/car hauler

It’s easier to say that the 5th wheel hitch makes it tow BETTER, not necessarily more.
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Old 08-25-2021, 08:31 AM   #9
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To answer your question very simple(without telling you how to live your life or what to do) yes the max payload is max payload. Either it be a bumper pull,fifthwheel or 3klbs worth of mcd's cheeseburgers. Where that weight is distributed is just a benefit if towing a fifthwheel over a bumper pull.
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Old 08-25-2021, 10:17 AM   #10
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Eventually, we’ll want to upgrade to a bigger 5th wheel and TV, and when we do that is predicated on if we’re living at our current house or not, and if a SRW 1-ton would handle it. (Driveway isn’t big enough for a dually and another car, and HOA won’t let us keep it in the street. The advertised pin weight for the trailer is 2750 (empty) which is 750 more than the entire payload of our 3/4 ton. With GM throwing about a poor estimate (15% total weight) the LAST thing I want to do is end up with a truck that’s pushing it’s limits…again.

I want a dually, and I want property I can store the trailer on rent-free. I just have to move to get it.
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Old 08-25-2021, 10:58 AM   #11
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Sounds good take your time and do it right. Just dont forget that the advertised pin weight will go up when you load the camper
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Old 08-25-2021, 11:25 AM   #12
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First off do not rely on "published" numbers, the point of them is to sell a product, period. GM's "new" weight stickers with gooseneck ratings is another sales tool. Any RV has a different loading/hitch percentage to GTW than a generic goose neck used to derive that rating. A flatbed hualing a tractor or a car will have far less pin weight than an RV.

As for the truck, payload is payload doesn't matter HOW the weight is applied, it's about HOW MUCH weight is applied. If that number isn't exceeded then the axle weight ratings dictate WHERE the weight can be applied. It's not a Chinese menu where you can pick WHICH max number you want to not exceed. It's the FIRST of any of those limitations that stop you when it's exceeded.
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Old 08-25-2021, 11:28 AM   #13
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O.p I should of stated max payload for an individual truck. They all have different payloads. Check payload stickers when window shopping
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:23 PM   #14
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So does their towing guide count as advertising fluff? It’s what I’ve been using as their published numbers and breaks everything out to chassis types (yes, payload withstanding) https://www.chevrolet.com/content/da...wing-guide.pdf

And is there a way, ahead of time, to specify by payload (we’ve all seen the stories of the guy that ordered a truck specifically, only to have the yellow sticker be a whole lot lower than they needed).
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:46 PM   #15
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Yes, that link is "advertising stuff". Every number there is generic and will be the optimum for whatever cab/chassis configuration is shown. GM is very bad about leaving you in a lurch using their numbers from their "brochures". The problem is the number you look at in that document will be a stripped down, zero frills model of whatever it is. When you order an LT, LTZ, Z71 or anything else that number plummets (payload) and leads to those customers that are shocked when that yellow sticker shows a thousand pounds less than what they thought.

I don't know how you order a truck and know what your payload will be from GM, just buy a couple sizes up I guess to try and cover for their lack of information. Ram adjusts the payload by trim level which helps tremendously when trying to order a truck. One reason to buy a truck off the lot......but there aren't any anymore. Good luck on getting the truck you need/want.
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:55 PM   #16
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Oh, I’m still a ways off…we paid $29.5 for our 2017 toy hauler In 2019….and just saw camping world trying to get $57k for the exact same trailer. I think I’ll stay put for a bit.
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Old 08-25-2021, 03:01 PM   #17
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I think that's a smart move. If a dealer has something in their hands they're trying to make a years salary on one sale vs a lot full.
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Old 08-25-2021, 03:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Rocketsled View Post
The Chevy towing guide calls out 5th wheel and gooseneck towing as separate from bumper pulling, and I know (yes I know, oh how I know) that we talk about the yellow payload sticker being the gospel for towing. (And in this fantasy, the trailer I’m lusting after is 750 lbs heavier at the pin than my whole payload)

But I thought the whole benefit of a 5th wheel was that it was locating all the weight on the rear axle (or nearly all of it, as geometry and safety allows). GM doesn’t even specify a pin weight on the 5th wheel/gooseneck charts, saying in a footnote that it should be 15% of the trailer weight.

It’s still that payload sticker, eh?
In reality the payload sticker is only a guide, GVWR and rear axle GAWR are the two important numbers when pulling a 5er.
The payload sticker is a guide when shopping on the lot, and now days a dealer should be able to give you the payload within a couple hundred pounds. Then once the truck is equipped and ready to tow then a trip to the scales to know exactly how much capacity you have left.

So now a question, is your concern the 3rd sticker that GM has added with maximum hitch weight for a TT or 5er? I have seen them in a couple post maybe on another forum, but the maximum hitch weight is a number less than the payload. That makes sense, but what about the single person with a heavy pin that will exceed the 3rd sticker pin weight, but still be within GVWR and rear GAWR. The ones I have seen seem to be about 700# to 800# less than payload.
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Old 08-25-2021, 04:25 PM   #19
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When it comes to truck payload the manufacturers will pick the maximum amount that a series CAN be equipped to tow. That's the max number based on the MOST MINUMILAY equipped truck in that class. That's a base model with zero options.

From that base model you add a radio, speakers, air conditioning, leather seats, cameras, running boards, 4 wheel drive, dual batteries and a zillion other fancy do-dads. All that comes directly off of the payload. After the factory weights the truck they affix the payload capacity sticker. It's the GVW of the truck minus what the truck ACTALLY weighs. So the more added in, the less payload remaining.

After the truck leaves the factory if the dealer adds any options say a bed liner, a tonnoue cover, running boards, undercoating, even floor mats further reduce payload but the sticker remains the same because that's not required to change under current law.

After you get it home and add a hitch, a cell phone holder, stuff in the console, change in the cup holder, tool box and tools in the bed, etc. THAT comes off the payload as well. The only way to truly KNOW what you have is to weigh it. Load it up to go camping with EVERYTHING in the truck, firewood, DW, kids, dog, etc. Then take that weight and subtract it from the truck's GVWR. What remains is the available payload.

Hit the scale with the truck loaded and the trailer in tow and you can KNOW what the trailer weights, what the tongue or pin weight is and where you actually stand. So how do you know BEFORE you buy? You can't, so the only thing you can do is estimate.

To estimate use the trailer GTWR unless you already own it and can weight it. For travel trailers use 15% of GTWR as tongue weight and for fifth wheels use 23%. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use the GTWR and do not kid yourself into thinking that you'll "pack light", "only travel short distances" or any of the other BS excuses to justify a truck that will "just get by on the numbers".
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Old 08-25-2021, 05:52 PM   #20
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So how do you know BEFORE you buy? You can't, so the only thing you can do is estimate.

To estimate use the trailer GTWR unless you already own it and can weight it. For travel trailers use 15% of GTWR as tongue weight and for fifth wheels use 23%. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use the GTWR and do not kid yourself into thinking that you'll "pack light", "only travel short distances" or any of the other BS excuses to justify a truck that will "just get by on the numbers".
It’s still more than a little annoying that it seems like there’s one more variable than equations where it comes to these things.
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