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Old 04-16-2019, 09:00 PM   #1
busterbrown
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General Perceptions of a Tow Vehicle's Capability

I'm still bewildered on the thought process of folks who throw all the numbers out the window when in search of a capable TV. What's even worse is when there are accolades presented to the OP for his brand, without a care in the world that payload will be exceeded by nearly 1 ton when ready to roll to his favorite camping destination. Just food for thought...
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:23 AM   #2
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Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often )
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:37 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by notanlines View Post
Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often )
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.
Jim, you spell it out perfectly. Unfortunately, it's more common than one thinks. Just walk around a typical state park mid-summer and they'll be plenty of examples. Being receptive to advice given by those more qualified isn't the norm anymore. Find a couple social media responses that validate your beliefs and it's off to the races.

I did happen to respond to the OPs thread and picked up on some more-than-subtle 'uncertainty' in his retort.

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Old 04-17-2019, 03:54 AM   #4
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And you hope you don't meet them on I-40 heading for the Cumberland Gap.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:41 AM   #5
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I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:19 AM   #6
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I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.
What is the saying Most accidents happen within 25 miles of home.

So what is confusing to many is MAX towing number for 2500's around 17,000#. Yes, your power-train will PULL that much if you have the correct stripper truck. The issue is it doesn't have the Payload capacity to carry the pin of and RV 5er that weight which will be in the neighborhood of 4,000#. You will not get that payload that can have that payload left after hitch etc. even in a 3500 SRW 3500.
You can pull a construction GN flatbed with equipment at or near that number, as you can adjust the load to reduce the amount of pin weight.

These are MAX numbers and options on your truck and stuff you need to haul your 5er will reduce these. That stuff adds up we have a payload sticker of 5,411# on our DRW, last scale trip ready to tow the truck with us and hitch and stuff scaled 9,950# on a GVWR of 14,000# so down to 4,050# of payload left for pin weight.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:45 AM   #7
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While I AM a convert when it comes to payload capacity and having the right truck for the task, (I was one of the dummies that tried to get a 37ft TT to work with an F150), I think the tow rating is the one that is fuzzy.

I've upgraded my previous 2013 F150 CCSB Ecoboost to a 2016 F350 SSCB 6.2 gasser. Pulling my previous TT, it really was a night and day difference as alot here have described. I'm also now pulling a 5er. When hitting the scales, I'm under all of my weights (GVCR, front/rear axle, and published max trailer weight) BUT, I'm over on the GCWR by a few hundred lbs. Now some will say that I'm a danger to society since there's no way I can stop this combo. When looking at the Ford specs, a 2016 F350 CCSB SWD can either have a max GCWR of either 19,800 or 22,800. The only difference in these 2 configurations is the rear end gearing of 3.73 vs 4.30. The rest of the truck is exactly the same. This leads me to believe that GCWR is calculated based more on the TVs ability to pull the load as opposed to stopping it.

Now when it comes to payload, I personally don't see being 100-200lbs pounds over (on a 3/4 or 1 ton) being dangerous, but being 1lb over on axle weights are a hard line no-no in my book
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:20 AM   #8
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A coworker of mine bought a Ram 2500 diesel long bed about a year ago. He was showing me the truck and were talking about towing. He said he got the long bed so he could tow a fifth wheel. I asked him what his payload capacity was, he briefly had a confused look on his face, and then told me with supreme confidence that it was “about 4000 pounds.” I asked to see the payload sticker in his door (he didn’t know it was there or what it was) and it said 1900 pounds. We talked about hitch weights on fifth wheels and payload capacities. He had no idea! He had never even heard of this stuff before! The salesman told him “that truck can tow anything.”
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:03 AM   #9
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I'd say that happens ^^^^^ a lot more often than any of us can believe. And to be honest, back in late 2010 when I bought my F250 Crew Cab diesel, I pretty much thought the same thing......F250 diesel...I should be able to tow about anything I wanted to tow when the time came to get my BIG TOY HAULER. a few years down the road. That day finally came along in 2016 and I got a good, big, healthy, dose of REALITY! Empty Pin weights for a 38-40' 5ver Toy Hauler were in the 2500-2700 lb range and 3600 lbs loaded to GVWR. I just about pooped my pants knowing I had 2148 lbs of payload capacity. What was I going to do? Long story short(er), I bought a tow behind T.H. that worked very well for us, even though it wasn't what I really wanted..I then bought A F350 Dually a couple of years ago, anticipating that large 5ver T.H. someday. On March 1st this year, that "someday" became reality, and the great news is that the truck is big enough, in all the capacities and weight ratings, it will handle my 42' T.H. with a GVWR of 20,000 lbs.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:17 AM   #10
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As to how and why some end up in the predicament described in the first post, I think it is a multitude of things. First would be ignorance...just flat don't know about weights and the only thing they've heard or been told is how much it can pull. Then I think there's pride, some arrogance, embarrassment and indifference - those that flat just don't care.

Pride - you bought something overweight for your truck. You don't want to hear about it and certainly don't want folks harping at you about it. Embarrassment would come into play in that scenario as well. Hopefully the majority of those folks realize the importance of the problem and take steps to rectify it either with a bigger TV or smaller RV.

Arrogance would be, to me, those that know the numbers....but know more about them because they "know" special stuff..."it's a 1/2 ton but it's got bigger springs so it's as capable as a 3/4 ton"; (a 3/4 ton is really a 1 ton it just has a few different components", etc. etc. "The numbers are there but they're just a guideline".

Indifference are those that know they're overweight and don't care because bad things could never happen to them, their families or those around them. Done it for years....no problems.

I would also have to throw in those that bought something too big unknowingly, found out, really wanted to get a bigger truck but just couldn't swing it. In that case I think a person will use the trailer but being aware of the situation takes all precautions to minimize any potential problems and fixes it when they can.

It IS a complicated issue that involves a lot of human traits that vary immensely from one person to the next. It seems to me that it is a very cut and dried issue; and not hard to understand....if you want to - but that's just me.
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:44 AM   #11
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I don’t understand the logic people use when they justify towing over weight because they are only going a short distance. It seems like something bad could happen just as easily on a short trip as a long trip.
Well part of it comes from the fact that a 250/2500 with a set of bags, can pull just as well as a 350/3500 with the same power-train. They are mostly the same vehicle biggest differences are likely springs, wheels and TIRES.

I towed a 32' 12,000#+ 5er for several years with a Ram 2500, Camper package, towing package, and optional higher capacity tires. yes it towed ok, but I was 1,200# to in the end 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR of the TV. Well I kept thinking what if, involved in an accident my fault or NOT, there are way too many hungry lawyers out there now days, I am retired, and just could not afford the thought.
So as several on this forum we stepped up to a 3500 DRW, well 15 years newer, way more payload and while I thought the old experience was fine, the new is soooooo smooooth!!

Old package



New Package

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Old 04-17-2019, 11:29 AM   #12
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The following is an out of context quote from a NHTSA document. I'm passing it on here because I feel it's germane to the topic.

"The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:49 AM   #13
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Well part of it comes from the fact that a 250/2500 with a set of bags, can pull just as well as a 350/3500 with the same power-train. They are mostly the same vehicle biggest differences are likely springs, wheels and TIRES.

I towed a 32' 12,000#+ 5er for several years with a Ram 2500, Camper package, towing package, and optional higher capacity tires. yes it towed ok, but I was 1,200# to in the end 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR of the TV. Well I kept thinking what if, involved in an accident my fault or NOT, there are way too many hungry lawyers out there now days, I am retired, and just could not afford the thought.
So as several on this forum we stepped up to a 3500 DRW, well 15 years newer, way more payload and while I thought the old experience was fine, the new is soooooo smooooth!!

Old package



New Package

You cannot compare a 2nd generation Dodge with a 4th generation Ram. The truth is in comparing a 4th generation Ram 2500 with a 3500 CTD 4WD SRW with the same powertrain they are exactly the same except for the door sticker and the coil suspension under the 2500. Yes, same everything, tires, rims, brakes, rear axle, gear ratios etc. I am not advocating you overload any vehicle. Both vehicles (the Ram 2500 and Ram 3500) are designed to pull & stop the same GCWR with 800 lb. ft. of torque. Question, is the TV designed to stop the towed vehicle or is the towed vehicle to have adequate brakes?
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Old 04-17-2019, 12:34 PM   #14
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I hate to admit... I too was under the same assumption with a F-350 SRW. I thought I could tow "Anything" It wasn't until reading on this forum of the weight limitations of vehicles. All I ever paid attention to was the "tow capacity"
I remember back when I picked up my toy hauler, I asked the young man from Camping World, going over my PDI, if my truck was OK to pull this unit. His reply was, "Depends how you load it" (At least he was honest. Compliment to CW of Meridian Idaho)
Next step was to upgrade to a DRW so I wouldn't worry so much about load balancing. Very well worth it!! (I also was scolded on this forum on another OP question about his F-250) Just had to throw that one in. Ha Ha!
Definitely have learned a whole lot more in the past few years. Thanks again to this forum for setting me straight!
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:33 PM   #15
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"It'll tow anything!
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:17 PM   #16
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"It'll tow anything!
Not gonna have to worry about a slider!!
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:34 PM   #17
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The same can be said about anything that people do in life.
Why does it take a heart attack to figure out eating fried chicken for 40+ plus years is not good for you. So get that bypass and start eating fried chicken again. It's the human condition.
Why the heck do people deep fry mars bars?
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:27 PM   #18
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You cannot compare a 2nd generation Dodge with a 4th generation Ram. The truth is in comparing a 4th generation Ram 2500 with a 3500 CTD 4WD SRW with the same powertrain they are exactly the same except for the door sticker and the coil suspension under the 2500. Yes, same everything, tires, rims, brakes, rear axle, gear ratios etc. I am not advocating you overload any vehicle. Both vehicles (the Ram 2500 and Ram 3500) are designed to pull & stop the same GCWR with 800 lb. ft. of torque. Question, is the TV designed to stop the towed vehicle or is the towed vehicle to have adequate brakes?
Well not exactly true, especially with the Ram 2500 to 3500 SRW.

The 2500 is only available with 3.42"s and 68RFE transmission.

The 3500 SRW is available with 3.42's, 3.73's and 4.10's and either the 68RFE or Aisin transmissions. In addition with the Aisin you get the HO CTD now 400 hp and 1,000# torque.

Also, I CAN compare my 2nd Gen to a 4th Gen, a whole lot better TV, I could have just bought a 2nd Gen DRW, but what I had was that with SRW's.

What worries me is the number of those towing heavy with a 250/2500 or even a 350/3500 SRW that only have a GVWR of 11,500# have NEVER been to a scale!
Ram as of 2018 was the only 350/3500 SRW with a 12,300# GVWR.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:40 PM   #19
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Well not exactly true, especially with the Ram 2500 to 3500 SRW.

The 2500 is only available with 3.42"s and 68RFE transmission.

The 3500 SRW is available with 3.42's, 3.73's and 4.10's and either the 68RFE or Aisin transmissions. In addition with the Aisin you get the HO CTD now 400 hp and 1,000# torque.

Also, I CAN compare my 2nd Gen to a 4th Gen, a whole lot better TV, I could have just bought a 2nd Gen DRW, but what I had was that with SRW's.

What worries me is the number of those towing heavy with a 250/2500 or even a 350/3500 SRW that only have a GVWR of 11,500# have NEVER been to a scale!
Ram as of 2018 was the only 350/3500 SRW with a 12,300# GVWR.
A 4th generation 3500 with the 68RFE is only available with the 3:42, exact same powertrain as the 2500. Apples to Apples. The Aisin is another ballgame. It takes a 5th generation to get the 400HP, 1000 lb.ft of torque.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:29 PM   #20
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A 4th generation 3500 with the 68RFE is only available with the 3:42, exact same powertrain as the 2500. Apples to Apples. The Aisin is another ballgame. It takes a 5th generation to get the 400HP, 1000 lb.ft of torque.
In a 4th gen you can get 3.73 or 4.10 with a 68RFE, but DRW only.
2019 3.73 is standard with 68RFE 4.10 is optional for SRW with 68RFE.

ON EDIT: The 5gen 2500's have 3.73's standard with CTD, and can be had with 4.10. It also has a MAX towing rating 19,780#
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