Javi's Rules for DEF Usage..

[Dave W]

I just refilled mine a day or so ago for the first time since last fall - and it only took about two gallons. I have used my truck pretty regularly, but not for long trips so very little DEF usage. In the Northeast, most stations other then truck stops don't have a DEF nozzle so that $11.87 jug from Walmart is my normal way to go. From what I can see locally, it's always fresh as about every other time when I look, the shelf is empty. I do carry a 2.5 gallon jug on a trip --- just because I can and buy more if needed.

It's beyond my comprehension why or how someone can run out. There are enough dash warnings and you have to manually clear the screen if the warning pops up.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Desert185

...and then there is the parody on badges. DEF. What DEF? I don't need no stinkin' DEF.

However, your plan looks like a good one to avoid the dreaded limp mode due to lack of DEF. Some stations don't have DEF, so I suppose one would have to carry a contingency box of DEF unless planning fueling at truck stops, if any exist along the planned route. Frankly, DEF seems like an inconvience that I am glad I don't experience.

Originally Posted by GMcKenzie

Originally Posted by hankaye

Howdy All;

Another reason why I got my truck it's work done last Summer,
it's a 2004 ... pre-DEF. One less thing to remember/worry about.

hankaye

You all don't know what you're missing out on.
These new trucks are incredible for comfort, performance, towing, etc. The new engines, transmissions, exhaust brake, pretty much everything about them is just a pleasure to own, drive, and more importantly....tow with. The only thing I don't like about them is the PRICE! I just looked at a new 2015 the other day, the sticker shock made me realize how much I like my 2011.

[Desert185]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

You all don't know what you're missing out on.
These new trucks are incredible for comfort, performance, towing, etc. The new engines, transmissions, exhaust brake, pretty much everything about them is just a pleasure to own, drive, and more importantly....tow with. The only thing I don't like about them is the PRICE! I just looked at a new 2015 the other day, the sticker shock made me realize how much I like my 2011.

Well, I drive a stick and I'm a steam-gauge, taildragger guy (if that means anything), so I guess I'm a different animal.

[TomHaycraft]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I just looked at a new 2015 the other day, the sticker shock made me realize how much I like my 2011.

So glad I ran across this 2013! Two years old, 41k on the engine, has the appearance of being well cared for, all the options I wanted (and none I didn't want!), less than $40k, had cash to cover what my trade-in didn't ... a no-brainer!

Saw it online on a Friday, stabilized the marriage before going to sleep that night, had her buy-in and was driving off with it by noon the next day. What a wonderful experience it was to tow with yesterday. And yes, 2.5 gal of Blue DEF with me until I see a reminder and get to know the engine a bit better!

[Lee]

Good Morning All,

Is the system smart enough to know the difference between DEF and water? In other words what if you filled with water instead of DEF.... would the system know? In theory, there should be no affect in performance unless a downstream sensor detects this and sets a code.

Something about this "Limp Mode" stuff doesn't sit well with me. Almost like Big Brother Socially Engineering me with something else. I mean, a perfectly performing engine being "limped" because it's emissions are out of spec... (and not harming the engine) Really!!!!!

Im amazed someone hasn't figured out a way to defeat the Limp mode feature in relation to DEF.

Sorry, rant mode = OFF.

[C130]

I don't understand how anyone could make a big deal about DEF. It's only added a few times a year, sold practically everywhere now. The trucks give you a warning with plenty of time to add more DEF so there's no excuse to run out and go in "limp mode". Using it as an excuse to not get a new truck is ridiculous. There are plenty of reasons to not buy a new truck, DEF is not one of them. Things change, sometimes you just have to change yourself and not be stuck in 20 year old technology. I deal with it every day giving check rides for my airline. Guys stuck in the 80's and don't want to change thinking the old way is the best way. Right or wrong, it's the new way and it isn't going back.

I'm like Javi, I keep mine full or at least half full most of the time. I go and buy about 5 gallons and every couple months just top it off. I have the Ford maintenance plan on my new truck so they top it off at the service intervals but I still bought five gallons last week when I had my oil changed. My dealership had a special so I bought some for my upcoming road trip. I just keep some in my garage or truck all the time. But, I'm the type that never lets my gas gauge get much less than half a tank, definitely above a 1/4 all the time. DEF takes five minutes or less a few time a year. It's just not a big deal and actually not any deal at all.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Lee

Good Morning All,

Is the system smart enough to know the difference between DEF and water? In other words what if you filled with water instead of DEF.... would the system know? In theory, there should be no affect in performance unless a downstream sensor detects this and sets a code.

Something about this "Limp Mode" stuff doesn't sit well with me. Almost like Big Brother Socially Engineering me with something else. I mean, a perfectly performing engine being "limped" because it's emissions are out of spec... (and not harming the engine) Really!!!!!

Im amazed someone hasn't figured out a way to defeat the Limp mode feature in relation to DEF.

Sorry, rant mode = OFF.

My question would be why bother? The cost is minimal at the pump $2.79 a gallon around here and even the 2 1/2 gallon jugs aren't that much if you look around $9.95, $13.95..

Also, the limp mode isn't instantaneously applied... you got to be really dense or something to ignore the warnings and just refuse to fill the tank. There just isn't anywhere in North America where you can't find a pump or a jug within 2000+ miles and if there is and you're headed that way; use a little common sense and carry a jug...

As a note... my truck get about 2000 miles between less than 1/2 full warnings... The last was 2375 miles but I wasn't towing the entire time.. that would lessen the mileage a bit.. But even if it cut it in 1/2... I'm thinking that somewhere in 1000 miles I'd find a jug... I know I'd have to fill up with diesel 3 times in 1K miles if towing..

[GMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

You all don't know what you're missing out on.
These new trucks are incredible for comfort, performance, towing, etc. The new engines, transmissions, exhaust brake, pretty much everything about them is just a pleasure to own, drive, and more importantly....tow with. The only thing I don't like about them is the PRICE! I just looked at a new 2015 the other day, the sticker shock made me realize how much I like my 2011.

My 2001 has ~160,000 kms on it (so ~ 100,000 miles). Costs very little (until the injectors go again) and pulls my unit with ease. I've thought about upgrading but just can't see paying $65K to replace what is working just fine.
I'm really not concerned about DEF, I just see no real reason to upgrade.

Besides, my 01 probably gets the best mpg out of all the Duramax's

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Javi

My question would be why bother? The cost is minimal at the pump $2.79 a gallon around here and even the 2 1/2 gallon jugs aren't that much if you look around $9.95, $13.95..

Also, the limp mode isn't instantaneously applied... you got to be really dense or something to ignore the warnings and just refuse to fill the tank. There just isn't anywhere in North America where you can't find a pump or a jug within 2000+ miles and if there is and you're headed that way; use a little common sense and carry a jug...

As a note... my truck get about 2000 miles between less than 1/2 full warnings... The last was 2375 miles but I wasn't towing the entire time.. that would lessen the mileage a bit.. But even if it cut it in 1/2... I'm thinking that somewhere in 1000 miles I'd find a jug... I know I'd have to fill up with diesel 3 times in 1K miles if towing..

Morning,

I agree in theory with you. What I can see happening with these trucks as they age is, like anything mechanical/electrical, components fail. I would be EXTREMELY angry if the DEF tank level sensor failed and put my truck in limp mode while the tank was in fact full. That's just one possible example.

Back to my question: Would the truck know if water was used instead of DEF?

[hankpage]

I have been driving diesels for a long time. Up until the late 90's if you had fuel and a rubber-band around the fuel cut off solenoid, there was nothing else needed to keep the engine running. As for horsepower, more fuel and air and the sky was the limit until something downstream broke. The only chips were in a bag you brought along for a snack, (no place to put them) there were no programmers, (nothing to program) and fuel was always less than regular gas. Limp mode was when you lost two injectors but the engine still kept running. Well enough of my trip down memory lane, but some times I question the "new technology is better" theory.

Javi, If it seems I went off topic ... I apologize.

And, NO! I am not still running DOS and damn, the new trucks sure are pretty, <end rant> Hank

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by GMcKenzie

My 2001 has ~160,000 kms on it (so ~ 100,000 miles). Costs very little (until the injectors go again) and pulls my unit with ease. I've thought about upgrading but just can't see paying $65K to replace what is working just fine.
I'm really not concerned about DEF, I just see no real reason to upgrade.

Besides, my 01 probably gets the best mpg out of all the Duramax's

I could be wrong with my "interpretation" of what bsmith0404 was saying, but the way I read his comment was that if you're NOT buying a new truck just because you don't want to deal with DEF, then you're "missing the boat". There are plenty of reasons not to buy a new truck: Cost, Need, Personal preferences, Future plans, and the list goes on and on....

I think what he was trying to convey was, "The new engines, transmissions, exhaust brake, pretty much everything about them is just a pleasure to own, drive, and more importantly....tow with. The only thing I don't like about them is the PRICE!" If you can get past the price, the trucks are great, don't let DEF be the reason you are afraid of the new ones, DEF isn't that big of a deal.

From my personal experience, having just traded a 2013 SuperDuty for a 2015 SuperDuty, I can confirm that the ride, highway noise and overall comfort are much improved just in the past 2 years. The towing experience is "yet to be confirmed" but I've no doubt the new one will tow better as well. As for DEF, I well remember the transition from "leaded gas to unleaded gas" that occurred in the early 70's. Much of the "I won't" and "Never on my truck" comments I hear about DEF were the same arguments we used "back then" about burnt heads, ring and valve problems and that "darned catalytic converter" And yet, here it is 40 years later and most of us can't remember the "leaded gas" arguments, we just buy unleaded and complain about the prices, hardly ever even think of the "old gas". I've no doubt that if technology stays with DEF, in 40 years we won't even think about it as we refuel and fill the DEF tank........

Hank, I agree with your assessment that "simple is easy to repair and maintain", but I also remember the days when airplanes had an airspeed indicator and a compass. Then along came radios, altimeters, lighting, retractable landing gear, metal skin, steering wheels...... (don't get me started on RADAR, collision avoidance systems, radar mapping, weather radar)...... It's almost like they should change the name from the "cockpit" to the "command center". But few of us would want to go back to the days of DC-3's with propellers when we book our next cross country flight.... Any more, with the new truck technology, there ain't no such thing as a "shade tree mechanic"....... As for "power was unlimited, until something downstream broke". Having those sensors to keep the downstream stuff from breaking" is kinda nice, even though it is complex to work on..... Improvement? From one perspective, NO, from another, Yup, it's better" more expensive, but better......

[Javi]

Originally Posted by hankpage

I have been driving diesels for a long time. Up until the late 90's if you had fuel and a rubber-band around the fuel cut off solenoid, there was nothing else needed to keep the engine running. As for horsepower, more fuel and air and the sky was the limit until something downstream broke. The only chips were in a bag you brought along for a snack, (no place to put them) there were no programmers, (nothing to program) and fuel was always less than regular gas. Limp mode was when you lost two injectors but the engine still kept running. Well enough of my trip down memory lane, but some times I question the "new technology is better" theory.

Javi, If it seems I went off topic ... I apologize.

And, NO! I am not still running DOS and damn, the new trucks sure are pretty, <end rant> Hank

Hank, I'm all too well aware of the OLD DAYS.. I bought my first diesel pickup in 1983 (Ford) and the first Ram diesel to hit Waco. (Man those RAMS looked tough.) But I got to tell you the new trucks are head and shoulders over them old trucks; in power, noise level, ride, and load capacity.

Now as for the cost... I refuse to pay more for a pickup than I gave for my house and don't mind telling the dealer exactly that.. So I look at XL's not KR..

[bsmith0404]

Yes the system will/can detect water instead of DEF. There are sensors before and after the DPF. When the truck goes into regen mode, the aft sensor would not detect proper levels of burn off as a result and you would get a poor DEF quality error.

[Ken / Claudia]

John, I remember all those changes. You left out a few like the A/C coolant change and diesel fuel change. My hope is when I want to upgrade my 2002 it will still be allowed on the road without all the new stuff the current trucks have.. So, I can sell it instead of sending it to the junk yard.

[Desert185]

I don't need to be drug into the 21st century, and DEF isn't keeping me from buying a newer truck. This old dog can, and has, learned new tricks. Conversely, some new dogs arrogantly refuse to learn old tricks just because they're old tricks. I saw that a lot when I was a check airman at my airline...(See Air France 447 for a prime example). Realization is a concept not always adopted by governments, companies and certain individuals until it is too late.

Back to DEF:

FWIW, I drove a later model 3500 Cummins with a stick and didn't like it, and not because of the stick. DEF or no DEF, I like my truck. If that is considered being "ridiculous" by some, then so be it.

[hankpage]

Originally Posted by Javi

Now as for the cost... I refuse to pay more for a pickup than I gave for my house and don't mind telling the dealer exactly that.. So I look at XL's not KR..

I can't use that excuse since I paid more for my '04 and my '94 than I did for my house. I guess I will have to be honest and just say "Mama said no more trucks." and she probably thinks DEF is a government agency. I'm sure that we all can relate to that, Hank

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Desert185

I don't need to be drug into the 21st century, and DEF isn't keeping me from buying a newer truck. This old dog can, and has, learned new tricks. Conversely, some new dogs arrogantly refuse to learn old tricks just because they're old tricks. I saw that a lot when I was a check airman at my airline...(See Air France 447 for a prime example). Realization is a concept not always adopted by governments, companies and certain individuals until it is too late.

Back to DEF:

FWIW, I drove a later model 3500 Cummins with a stick and didn't like it, and not because of the stick. DEF or no DEF, I like my truck. If that is considered being "ridiculous" by some, then so be it.

I can relate to that. People keep telling me I should have put a roller cam and fuel injection in my 75 vette when I built the motor. I like making 450 hp with a small block Chevy old school way. Every time I start it I get a nice flashback to my younger days and building engines for the race car and trucks and hot rods. I'll admit the new eengines are more efficient, but I like the old school with a nice cam lope. I did put a 5 speed in it though

[bobbecky]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the reason for DEF. DEF allows the engines to run on a leaner mixture and still meet NOX emissions rules, and because they are running leaner, you get better fuel mileage. I also like the fact that I can stomp on the throttle and it doesn't look like a freight train with smoke belching out the exhaust. So the DPF is also a good item to have. All these things added into the system, and these rigs still have more stock horsepower and torque than previous generations of diesels.

[C130]

Originally Posted by Desert185

I don't need to be drug into the 21st century, and DEF isn't keeping me from buying a newer truck. This old dog can, and has, learned new tricks. Conversely, some new dogs arrogantly refuse to learn old tricks just because they're old tricks. I saw that a lot when I was a check airman at my airline...(See Air France 447 for a prime example). Realization is a concept not always adopted by governments, companies and certain individuals until it is too late.

Back to DEF:

FWIW, I drove a later model 3500 Cummins with a stick and didn't like it, and not because of the stick. DEF or no DEF, I like my truck. If that is considered being "ridiculous" by some, then so be it.

Then I guess my comments didn't apply to you and apologize if you thought they did. I've heard numerous people talk about the DEF and how big of a deal it is so they aren't getting a new truck.

The safety record for aviation speaks for itself; it's safer now than 20 years ago. Yes, there's a lot to be learned from experience and some old ways but the technology today is better and much safer if used properly. I've flown the "steam gauged" aircraft and everything in between to the current jets. There's no comparison as far as safety goes; today's aircraft are much safer. Foreign airlines train much different than the U.S. and also hire much less experienced pilots and that's a major reason for their crashes.

[byrdr1]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

I guess the trucks are to big to be hand pushing to the gas station when running out. I did that for 2 blocks with a Datsun P/U about 40 years ago. I really like to travel on the first 1/2 of fuel in any tank not the last half.

NOT to high jack thread but I had a Datsun pickup 40 plus years ago too. A 1966 with 1800cc engine. I blew it up and rebuilt it myself and replaced the clutch and pressure plate too many times.. Funny.. I went on the buy two more Nissan pickups before I switched to ford trucks.
I saw a ton of new diesels at the beach campground last week lots of them with the new 6.7 and most were F-250 short bed crewcabs. Saw one pulling a toyhauler, not sure about that one. BUT he was happy. Gave me the fever bad......I want one or at least a 6.4 08/09 model.
my 7.3 just turned 236000 miles.