Calling all weight polic: 5th wheel question

[Rocketsled]

The Chevy towing guide calls out 5th wheel and gooseneck towing as separate from bumper pulling, and I know (yes I know, oh how I know) that we talk about the yellow payload sticker being the gospel for towing. (And in this fantasy, the trailer I’m lusting after is 750 lbs heavier at the pin than my whole payload)

But I thought the whole benefit of a 5th wheel was that it was locating all the weight on the rear axle (or nearly all of it, as geometry and safety allows). GM doesn’t even specify a pin weight on the 5th wheel/gooseneck charts, saying in a footnote that it should be 15% of the trailer weight.

It’s still that payload sticker, eh?

[notanlines]

I think I’ll stay out of this one other than to say that the accepted pin weight percentage standard in the RV industry is still 22%, not 15%.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

The Chevy towing guide calls out 5th wheel and gooseneck towing as separate from bumper pulling, and I know (yes I know, oh how I know) that we talk about the yellow payload sticker being the gospel for towing. (And in this fantasy, the trailer I’m lusting after is 750 lbs heavier at the pin than my whole payload)

But I thought the whole benefit of a 5th wheel was that it was locating all the weight on the rear axle (or nearly all of it, as geometry and safety allows). GM doesn’t even specify a pin weight on the 5th wheel/gooseneck charts, saying in a footnote that it should be 15% of the trailer weight.

It’s still that payload sticker, eh?

See you have been here awhile and have likely read the zillions of threads on the numbers involved with a fifth wheel. I also note you have no signature and your tow vehicle isn't listed in your profile. Your bumper pull toy hauler has a gross weight of 13K lbs and the accepted guidance for bumper pull campers is about 13 percent of the gross weight and the accepted guidance for a fifth wheel (you may be contemplating) is 23 percent. Not sure why you needed to ask or gave us Chevy specs from a brochure. Perhaps if you quit tap dancing and said what it is you need to know if you are thinking of a new camper and listed your current tow vehicle and its payload you would get a straight answer.

[xrated]

You will rarely find a 5th Wheel Camping type trailer that puts down less than 20% of the trailer weight on the hitch, via the pin. 21%, 22%, and 23% are a lot more common numbers, and once in a while you will see some that may go up to 25%. So if Chevy/GM is saying 15%, they simply do not have a clue on reality. Imagine that, someone in Corp. that doesn't know their butt from a hole in the ground!

[Rocketsled]

Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?

In 99.999% of the time, the truck's available payload capacity will be the limiting factor for a 5th wheel camper.......not nearly as much for tow behind campers.

And just so you know, the order of progression for overload goes like this.
First, when you add enough weight to the truck, you will reach the payload number.
Second...if you go over the payload number, you automatically go over the GVWR of the truck.
Next is the Axle ratings.....if you keep adding weight to the truck, you will eventually overload the axle.
Then the last thing....once you have overloaded the payload and the GVWR of the truck, and then the axle rating, you will eventually reach the tire load capacity. This is assuming that the tires are fully inflated to the max psi that is listed on the sidewall of the tire. This is also assuming that the tires are new enough that they still have the stated load capacity at the listed psi on the tire.

[Rocketsled]

That makes sense, and the huge gooseneck weight ratings are for situations where there’s not a lot of weight on the gooseneck, it’s all being carried by the axles of they hypothetical horse trailer/car hauler

It’s easier to say that the 5th wheel hitch makes it tow BETTER, not necessarily more.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by xrated

In 99.999% of the time, the truck's available payload capacity will be the limiting factor for a 5th wheel camper.......not nearly as much for tow behind campers.

And just so you know, the order of progression for overload goes like this.
First, when you add enough weight to the truck, you will reach the payload number.
Second...if you go over the payload number, you automatically go over the GVWR of the truck.
Next is the Axle ratings.....if you keep adding weight to the truck, you will eventually overload the axle.
Then the last thing....once you have overloaded the payload and the GVWR of the truck, and then the axle rating, you will eventually reach the tire load capacity. This is assuming that the tires are fully inflated to the max psi that is listed on the sidewall of the tire. This is also assuming that the tires are new enough that they still have the stated load capacity at the listed psi on the tire.

I really liked the simplicity of this explanation. It would be useful to quote in future threads on the subject. Good job Xrated.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?

Since we're "speaking strictly in hypotheticals".....

The "payload sticker" is only valid on the day the truck was weighed at the end of the assembly line and the sticker was attached to the door frame....

As soon as it rolled onto the dealer's lot and you bought it, that "maximum payload" becomes a "conditional payload"... in other words, if your DW is sitting in the passenger's seat and she weighs 300 pounds, you have less payload than if she's sitting in the passenger's seat and weighs 100 pounds...

To "clarify" the above: It could be weight in her purse or weight on her seat, both affect that "yellow sticker" by reducing the remaining "available payload"...

So, hypothetically, ALL weight ratings, Payload, RAWR, FAWR, GVWR, receiver weight rating, hitch weight rating all MUST be considered and not exceeded....

When you "speak strictly hypothetically" it's very likely IMPOSSIBLE to reach a manufacturers SAE J2807 procedural fifth wheel rating which uses a "gooseneck flatbed trailer rating procedure" which calls for balancing the trailer weight so 15% of the gross weight is positioned on the pin. You'll NEVER find such an RV... Did I mention it's impossible" to find a fifth wheel RV that can be balanced that way ?????

So, when you use a chart in a brochure that deals with "SAE procedures to certify a flatbed trailer to obtain a maximum gooseneck/fifth wheel towing weight", you can't (CAN NOT) apply that to similar weights when towing a recreational vehicle that is not set up the same way (carefully balancing the pin weight to attain 15% of gross trailer weight for testing purposes)...

Real world and "brochure world" are entirely different realities !!!!!

If the "brochure weight limit on your truck is 750 pounds lighter than the brochure weight of your dream fifth wheel RV, then you need a new truck or a new dream RV.....

Obtaining the actual "SAE J2807 procedural requirements will cost you $85.
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_201602/

Here is a "Motor Trend report" from about 6 years ago that gives the "performance details" https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...-the-standard/ BUT it doesn't go into the actual "trailer setup procedure" which is shown in one of the photos. Take a look at the photo around the middle of the report, which shows a Ford and a RAM dually, both hitched to a "red flatbed". Take note of the way the trailers are loaded, with flat sheets of steel, positioned over the axles. Those sheets are moved "fore/aft" as needed to attain "precisely 15% pin weight"... Then the test is performed "sort of like Motor Trend describes"...

THAT TEST AIN'T REAL WORLD RV TOWING !!!!!

[tomd]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?

Simple, you have to be LESS than all the limits. There is no last word. I traded up to F350 because F250 payload was being exceeded per specs.


Actual is basis, but it you got into a legal snarl a lawsuit my argue rated numbers.
It’s unfortunate they build and advertise truck based on towing flat trailer with four wheels…meaning you could drag a forest of logs, just don’t hitch it so weight is on rear wheels,truck bed, etc.
So you can turn everything into margin of safety, your tires maybe have best margin,but truck payload negative margin= not safe.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

See you have been here awhile and have likely read the zillions of threads on the numbers involved with a fifth wheel. I also note you have no signature and your tow vehicle isn't listed in your profile. Your bumper pull toy hauler has a gross weight of 13K lbs and the accepted guidance for bumper pull campers is about 13 percent of the gross weight and the accepted guidance for a fifth wheel (you may be contemplating) is 23 percent. Not sure why you needed to ask or gave us Chevy specs from a brochure. Perhaps if you quit tap dancing and said what it is you need to know if you are thinking of a new camper and listed your current tow vehicle and its payload you would get a straight answer.

Pause. This is a hypothetical conversation. Does payload dictate in all cases, bumper-pull and 5th wheel? Because the official documentation from the vehicle manufacturer is vague.

This is not “can I get by with my current maxed out rig”. There is no tap dancing.

Pulling a trailer off your bumper is different than pulling it from an anchor point over the back axle.

Now. That said. The payload is for the tires and it’s specific to the vehicle as equipped. I could see that still being the specifier as too much weight pops your tires, regardless of where it sits on the truck.

But really…REALLY… it’s an attempt at improving my knowledge, not “I’m pulling a triple axle with my tundra, I’m good, right?”

[Ribtip]

To answer your question very simple(without telling you how to live your life or what to do) yes the max payload is max payload. Either it be a bumper pull,fifthwheel or 3klbs worth of mcd's cheeseburgers. Where that weight is distributed is just a benefit if towing a fifthwheel over a bumper pull.

[Rocketsled]

Eventually, we’ll want to upgrade to a bigger 5th wheel and TV, and when we do that is predicated on if we’re living at our current house or not, and if a SRW 1-ton would handle it. (Driveway isn’t big enough for a dually and another car, and HOA won’t let us keep it in the street. The advertised pin weight for the trailer is 2750 (empty) which is 750 more than the entire payload of our 3/4 ton. With GM throwing about a poor estimate (15% total weight) the LAST thing I want to do is end up with a truck that’s pushing it’s limits…again.

I want a dually, and I want property I can store the trailer on rent-free. I just have to move to get it.

[RickV]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Eventually, we’ll want to upgrade to a bigger 5th wheel and TV, and when we do that is predicated on if we’re living at our current house or not, and if a SRW 1-ton would handle it. (Driveway isn’t big enough for a dually and another car, and HOA won’t let us keep it in the street. The advertised pin weight for the trailer is 2750 (empty) which is 750 more than the entire payload of our 3/4 ton. With GM throwing about a poor estimate (15% total weight) the LAST thing I want to do is end up with a truck that’s pushing it’s limits…again.

I want a dually, and I want property I can store the trailer on rent-free. I just have to move to get it.

Dually's are only 8' wide vs SRW's which are 6' 8" you are only talking about 16" difference.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by RickV

Dually's are only 8' wide vs SRW's which are 6' 8" you are only talking about 16" difference.

Dually owners can be as bad as reformed smokers...

[RickV]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Dually owners can be as bad as reformed smokers...

What can I say

[Rocketsled]

Gotta get the family trained. With two teenagers and the wife, sometimes I can’t get around the suv and the Mercedes’ they’re parked to wonky.

(Mercedes is a 92’ 400e with 200k miles, lest you start to get any ideas. )

[Ribtip]

Sounds good take your time and do it right. Just dont forget that the advertised pin weight will go up when you load the camper

[flybouy]

First off do not rely on "published" numbers, the point of them is to sell a product, period. GM's "new" weight stickers with gooseneck ratings is another sales tool. Any RV has a different loading/hitch percentage to GTW than a generic goose neck used to derive that rating. A flatbed hualing a tractor or a car will have far less pin weight than an RV.

As for the truck, payload is payload doesn't matter HOW the weight is applied, it's about HOW MUCH weight is applied. If that number isn't exceeded then the axle weight ratings dictate WHERE the weight can be applied. It's not a Chinese menu where you can pick WHICH max number you want to not exceed. It's the FIRST of any of those limitations that stop you when it's exceeded.

[Ribtip]

O.p I should of stated max payload for an individual truck. They all have different payloads. Check payload stickers when window shopping