GAS OR DIESEL What to consider

[brodiegg]

I recently had to upgrade my truck from a Ram 1500 to a 2500 and did a lot of reading, watching videos, and talking to truckers. Diesels were the gold standard if you were towing, but with newer gas engines, the higher costs of diesel fuel over gas, the higher maintenance costs of diesels, the added cost of the def additive,and the much higher initial cost of buying---up around 6-9 thousand for diesels, the debate is getting foggier. A recent discussion estimated 60,000 to 150,000 miles to break even. They did say that if you are going to tow over 20,000 pounds, or a lot of mountain driving, diesels take over as the preferred engine. I chose the 6.4 hemi and used the savings for creature comforts---I like air cooled seats. I have owned a diesel suv and liked it, and my daughter drives a diesel, so no bias for or against. So the final answer is how big, how heavy, and where are you towing

[Number 4]

Your story matches mine brodiegg. I have the longer commute so I drive the Camry while the DW drives the F-250 gasser. Fuel mileage is no doubt better in a diesel, even for commuting, but our camping getaways are not long distance runs and the truck had zero issues climbing to 7,300 feet in June. My TT isn't huge, but with "stick and tin" construction it's not light weight and would have put me over capacity in a half ton truck. I also like the AC seats and all the extra goodies in the Lariat trim package! The tow/haul mode is fantastic so I'm good with gas.

[travelin texans]

If you're partime or weekenders, either will do the job. If you're going fulltime, ABSOLUTELY DIESEL, with the tow haul & exhaust brake is the best combination.
As for expenses, DEF is $11-12+/- every 3-3.5k miles, except for truck stops fuel is within a few cents of gasoline, oil changes at 7.5-10k miles rather than 3k, the big thing is the initial cost between the two. The other thing is longevity, the diesel will outlast the gasser a minimum of 2 to 1, more so if you're constantly towing in the mountains, with good periodic maintenance.
We've towed across the country several times, through the mountains on both sides & can't imagine doing it in a gasser.

[Number 4]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

If you're partime or weekenders, either will do the job. If you're going fulltime, ABSOLUTELY DIESEL, with the tow haul & exhaust brake is the best combination.
As for expenses, DEF is $11-12+/- every 3-3.5k miles, except for truck stops fuel is within a few cents of gasoline, oil changes at 7.5-10k miles rather than 3k, the big thing is the initial cost between the two. The other thing is longevity, the diesel will outlast the gasser a minimum of 2 to 1, more so if you're constantly towing in the mountains, with good periodic maintenance.
We've towed across the country several times, through the mountains on both sides & can't imagine doing it in a gasser.

I'm all in with most everything you wrote Danny, except for fuel pricing. This chart puts diesel 13% higher cost than regular and 6.5% less than premium. We only fuel up with premium if we're going into the mountains. Commuting and flatland towing does fine with regular grade. Maybe the average between regular and premium is within pennies?

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm

Oil changes every 7,500 miles is sure nice compared to 3,000.

[sourdough]

The diesel vs gas conversation is as old as, well....diesel and gas. And I know there are lots of diesel advocates and lovers on this and other RV forums but there are reasons for folks to choose a gas engine.

I've put the numbers to it every which way and there are a couple of no brainers to me; over 10 - 12k, diesel without a doubt period. Constant towing in variable terrains, read mountains; diesel. After that it gets much foggier.

The initial cost can't be recouped at all unless you retain the vehicle for a long time or drive it for lots of miles (I do neither). On top of that the additional ongoing maintenance, costs of repairs and cost of fuel make it difficult to determine that a diesel is the best choice for just everyday stuff unless you meet the first 2 criteria or just want one because they pull better...and they do pull much better than a gas engine; but then again, today, in my town, diesel is 29% higher than gas and it has been as much as 33-34% higher. It's hard to close that price point gap with that kind of difference. Fuel mileage has almost become a moot point. With the diesel bettering the gas engine in both highway and towing by maybe 20 - 25% it won't do well enough to overcome the fuel price difference. And then there's that 9-10k initial outlay.

As the OP noted, at one time a diesel was considered a necessity if you were going to tow much of anything - and, diesel fuel was always cheaper than gas back when. Times have changed and the offerings for gas engines have changed drastically and dramatically. They're nothing like they were when the old opinions were formed. So it IS much more difficult than it used to be unless you have some of the qualifiers I mentioned above. Not trying to start a diesel vs gas debate but rather trying to expound on the OPs observation of it being harder to choose a diesel because the clear cut lines in the past have become more blurry.

Edit: some posts appeared after I started composing this. Trade in value to recoup the initial cost is something I forgot to mention, and it is there, but according to my son (who has been in the car business for decades) the average trade in value of a used diesel over the gas counterpart was 4-5k. I'm sure that number moves all over the place depending on all the variable that go with a used vehicle. It still doesn't cover for the 9-11k up front cost unless it is giving you some tangible benefit above and beyond a gas engine to make up for the difference. IMO both engines belong in the towing world and have very definite, specific niches they fill better than the other one can. Your mileage can and will vary I'm sure.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Number 4

I'm all in with most everything you wrote Danny, except for fuel pricing. This chart puts diesel 13% higher cost than regular and 6.5% less than premium. We only fuel up with premium if we're going into the mountains. Commuting and flatland towing does fine with regular grade. Maybe the average between regular and premium is within pennies?

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm

Oil changes every 7,500 miles is sure nice compared to 3,000.

You are wasting you money running premium fuel on an engine designed to run regular fuel. Premium fuel (read higher octane) is actually not going to work as well as regular....if you vehicle is designed to run on regular. The higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to ignition...which means you need either more compression and or more heat to be able to make it ignite effficiently, which is normally a function for higher compression engines. There are a lot of articles out there that explain it a lot better than I can, but the bottom line is to save you money and actually get better performance from your engine.

[slow]

I agree that daily drivers with high compression engines only need premium fuel as specified by the manufacturer. A daily driver spec'd to use regular will not benefit from premium.



But modern computer controlled engines that are heavily loaded like our gas TVs do take advantage of the premium fuel by avoiding having the engine knock (pre-ignition) sensors retarding the timing and reducing performance due to the use of regular, lower octane fuel.

If your engine pings under heavy load while using regular, premium will help. But if running premium under light loads, be prepared to clean the black soot off the rear bumper since the premium will not be burned “clean”.

[Number 4]

Originally Posted by xrated

You are wasting you money running premium fuel on an engine designed to run regular fuel. Premium fuel (read higher octane) is actually not going to work as well as regular....if you vehicle is designed to run on regular. The higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to ignition...which means you need either more compression and or more heat to be able to make it ignite effficiently, which is normally a function for higher compression engines. There are a lot of articles out there that explain it a lot better than I can, but the bottom line is to save you money and actually get better performance from your engine.

My tendency to use premium for mountain climbing is a holdover from preventing the knock-fest in my '99 Dodge Ram 5.7L when premium did make a difference.
A www.ford-trucks.com Why Is My Truck Knocking article says, "In the case of both the F-250 and the F-150, the engine computer will retard the ignition timing if it senses pinging." I'll try regular 87 octane on our next run up the hill and listen closely because Ford did a great job insulating the cab from the engine compartment. Thanks for the comment!

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by xrated

You are wasting you money running premium fuel on an engine designed to run regular fuel. Premium fuel (read higher octane) is actually not going to work as well as regular....if you vehicle is designed to run on regular. The higher octane fuel has a higher resistance to ignition...which means you need either more compression and or more heat to be able to make it ignite efficiently, which is normally a function for higher compression engines. There are a lot of articles out there that explain it a lot better than I can, but the bottom line is to save you money and actually get better performance from your engine.

I am a vintage bike mechanic. Older Kawasakis (70s/80s) and Suzukis of the same era had under 9:1 compression and running high test fuel which, as has been noted, is actually harmful and causes a lot of deposits on valves and poorer performance than regular gas. If you put in a piston kit with 10.25:1 compression pistons, it is necessary to keep the engine from pre-igniting the mixture and poppppping. In this case high-test is needed. It also helps to retard your ignition advance in these cases. Most of the high-test benefit might come in the form of more advance additive packages but I can't say for sure if this is marketing hype of for real.

As far as gas or diesel, I pull my trailer about once a month and don't go all that far. We have a 19 year old chihuahua with no eye balls that MUST go with us (my missus would leave me home before that pup!). The gas works fine and I had to buy a gas truck as I can't afford a diesel of the same even ancient vintage as my 96 F250. I bought my truck for $1700 and a diesel in the same condition with under 300K miles would have been about $4-5K more. Since I work on my property, no sense buying top shelf in my case and after looking at the Ford truck site and having my head spin around on the 6.0 and 6.4 diesel threads with all the mods to make those engines perform acceptably, I feel better with a gas engine. Do I wish I could sit with my engine idling for 2 hours while my wife leaves me out in the Walmart parking lot? Sure but it is cheaper for me to just roll down the windows and sweat a little.

[Sunnysidebeach]

Originally Posted by Number 4

I'm all in with most everything you wrote Danny, except for fuel pricing. This chart puts diesel 13% higher cost than regular and 6.5% less than premium. We only fuel up with premium if we're going into the mountains. Commuting and flatland towing does fine with regular grade. Maybe the average between regular and premium is within pennies?

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm

Oil changes every 7,500 miles is sure nice compared to 3,000.

Exactly what I was going to say...

With variable ratio timing, to accommodate the high compression gas motors, when towing, we need all the extra power we can get. As Such, I have to run 93, when towing my little 30 travel trailer, in the South Eastern US. I could not imagine towing the western mountains with anything less than 93. As such fuel coast is about the same for 93 vs diesel.

[JRTJH]

As an added comment, the cost of a diesel upgrade is usually "almost completely recovered" at tradein. Most 5 year old diesel trucks are priced about $5K - $8K more than a comparable gas engine model with the same optional equipment. So, even though that "new diesel option is $8K more than a gas truck" at tradein time, the cost of the engine is returned in increased tradein value.

That's not to say that diesels are for everyone. Just that it isn't always "painful or expensive" because of the cost of what's under the hood.

[Number 4]

But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Number 4

But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing!

But definitely not a requirement for the type towing you do. It's honestly an opinion/desire/cost/pocketbook issue with anything less than about 10K-12K trailer weight. Under that, a gas engine will do well for most people who don't full-time. Over that weight, well, it becomes more and more a necessity than an option. Sort of like SRW vs DRW with heavy loads. Maybe you can "squeak by, maybe you can't"..... Then even that boils down to "should you vs could you"....

There definitely a place for both engine types in RVing.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Number 4

But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing!

Not to start anything here, but the Power Stroke is not the only one capable of doing this!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Not to start anything here, but the Power Stroke is not the only one capable of doing this!

Nah, It's not the engine it's all in the tires.... Ford comes with Michelin, GM and RAM, well, their tires just don't grip as well ROFL

[Number 4]

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Number 4
But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing! :)

travelin texans;302557

Not to start anything here, but the Power Stroke is not the only one capable of doing this!

Oh, it's ON now Danny! (joking ) You are quite correct, there are a variety of name brands with potent pulling power. Remember to use straps for stump pulling instead of chains. Chain break, become shrapnel, bad day for you.


Come visit California. We have many many burned trees for you to practice on.

[brodiegg]

Yep, match the tow rig, tow vehicle, and living style and the match will be made in heaven.

[Javi]

I usually stay out of the diesel vs gas arguments... But if the twenty or so cents a gallon is the big reason to go with gas... y'all better rethink this thing.. especially if you tow very often.. Gas is going to get 7 - 10 mpg towing and diesel is going to top that by a couple or three mpg at worse...

BTW... resale... look at the same truck gas vs diesel.. you get your money back

Been doing this a long while, (bought my first diesel pickup in '83) and the positives far out weigh the negatives..

[bob91yj]

I drive a DuraMax, and I love my truck, but it would be a tough call for me between gas/diesel if I had to buy a new one. My truck is an '06 so it doesn't have all of the smog stuff that the newer ones have. My issue with the new ones is if something goes south on the emissions system it almost always throws the truck into limp mode. (I'm a service advisor at a Chevy dealership, I see plenty of trucks and their problems.)

[tjkarch60]

I drive a 07 Classic 2500HD w/Duramax and while my current trailer isn't that heavy and a gasser could easily pull it, I still am happy I paid the extra for the DMax.
The only thing I've had to replace are the 4 glow plugs on the drivers side and a relay for the heater/AC fan(interior). I've had the dealer (Chevy/GM dealer) do the oil changes because they can do a general inspection at the same time and the price is very reasonable. Much cheaper than my BMW! Which I do myself...
I have gotten several inquires from my dealer and a Ford asking if I wanted to sell my truck to them. I don't want to get into another car loan and my truck is everything I want in one. No DEF, no fancy smog stuff.
So yes a diesel is more expensive, but you only live once and you should get what you want, as long as you can afford it.
PS, once I was driving in the high plains of Idaho, driving (without trailer) from Mt. Home to Elko, NV and had a lot of stuff in the bed under the canopy and my readout said I was getting close to 32MPG. I guess the thin air helped.