Unsolved Electrical Issues - HELP

arosenwinkel · 10-21-2019, 12:16 PM

We've had our 2018 Outback 250URS since June of 2018. When it is parked at home, which is 90% of the time, it has always been plugged in to the same GFI outlet in the garage. In order to do this, I have to stretch the 30A lockable cord from the trailer, three additional 25' 30A extension cords, and finally a 30A-15A dogbone. In a year and a half, we've never had an issue.

We go out last weekend, come home on Sunday evening, and when I plug in the same setup, the GFI trips. I tested cord by cord, each being fine, and it doesn't trip until I get all the way to the trailer and plug it in. I tried a second GFI, on a separate circuit in the house, and it still trips.

I sent it to the dealer, who said they plugged in our lockable 30A and everything was fine. They attempted to get it to fail by turning on A/C, heater, fridge, microwave, etc, but were never able to replicate the scenario.

Lo and behold I get it back home last night, and the same thing happens. I start by plugging in with no extensions, just the 30A lockable with a dogbone, and it trips. I switch to a second dogbone in case thats the weak point, still trips; try two more GFIs, on two more circuits and they all fail.

Dealer says its not in the trailer. Yes, it COULD be in the house, but what are the odds of three GFIs all being bad, on three different circuits?

I'm at a loss. Anybody have any ideas?

**flybouy** · 10-21-2019, 01:39 PM

From your description the dealer is not replicating your condition. Using a "standard" 30 Amp RV outlet is not a GFI. I would challenge them if they charged you for that diagnosis if you explained it to them as you did here.
What now? I would suggest turning all the breakers off in the camper and plugging it in at home. In the breaker panel of the camper turn on the main breaker only. If that trips the GFI then I'd have the wiring to the panel checked. If it doesn't trip turn one breaker at a time on. If the GFI holds then turn that breaker off and move on to the next breaker and work thru until it trips the GFI. That will isolate the problem.
. With that said, using 2 30 Amp extension cords (total of 75'?) and then using a 30 to 15 Amp adapter is just inviting issues. From voltage drops, poor connections (creates high resistance and heat) at all those plugs and most likely having connections lying on the ground being susceptible to moisture is less than ideal at best, and potentially a fire hazard.
. I'd urge you to have an electrician wire you a 30 Amp RV Outlet with in a 25' reach of your camper if that's going to be your permanent storage solution.

notanlines · 10-21-2019, 02:24 PM

Along the same answer as Flybouy Marshall, "three additional 25' 30A extension cords, and finally a 30A-15A dogbane" seems very suspect to me. Way too much resistance. How about making your own 100 ft extension cord with AWG 10-2 w/grd and put your own fitting (appropriate fittings) on each end? A little cumbersome? Yes, or you can buy a 10 gauge construction grade 100 ft cord. Don't loan it to your son, to your friends, or the neighbor...

kksfish · 10-22-2019, 04:08 AM

OP didn’t advise if it is a GFI breaker or a receptacle? It might be worth it to just replace the receptacle and see if that helps.....then possibly swap the GFCI breaker with another known good one and see if either cures the problem!

arosenwinkel · 10-22-2019, 05:36 AM

Have not yet tried to isolate the issue internal to the trailer via breakers, will attempt that. Also, going out again this weekend, and will try both 30A direct and 30A-15A connection at the campground. On a completely separate power source if it fails, tells me its the trailer, if not, its the house.

Connection is to GFI receptacle, not breaker. Explored possibility of GFI receptacle being bad, but when it was replicated on two additional GFI receptacles (on two differing circuits), thought it was quite unlikely.

Have inquired to electrician on feasibility of running 50A service to shed (approx 100'), where will provide a 30A RV outlet (<5' from TT) as well as light/power to shed. Planning to have this done in the spring anyway, just happened to have this issue pop up right before we winterize and store for the season.

arosenwinkel · 10-25-2019, 05:51 AM

Ran all new cords (new power cord, single-75' extension, and 30A-15A dogbone), GFI still tripped. Isolated breakers and narrowed the issue to the Rec/Con breaker, everything else runs fine individually and all-on. GFI only trips when Rec/Con breaker is turned on.

jsmith948 · 10-25-2019, 06:21 AM

Could it be that you have a leak or excessive condensation around or near one of the receptacles in the REC/CON circuit. It takes very little moisture to trip the GFI. Something changed while you were on your trip.

Water intrusion under the wall into and around the power distribution panel from a leak or spill?

Where is your vacuum breaker for the black tank flush located? I read a post on here about someone's vacuum breaker being located in the wall above the power panel. When it leaked, the water made its way to the power panel.

Just thinking out loud.

arosenwinkel · 10-25-2019, 06:28 AM

I haven't done a thorough investigation as to all of the receptacles and potential moisture; we will have it out tonight and I will dig around.

In regards to the power panel, I can't say that I have specifically looked for moisture, however, when it was in the shop the first time, they told me they had the power panel opened up, and I would hope they would have noticed moisture/leaking in the area.

Just spoke with them via phone to take it in again, and they're narrowing down as well; based on the Rec/Con breaker, and that it only trips on the 15A GFI, but not on the 30A receptacle, believe its related to the converter. I'll have it out this weekend at a state park with both 15A and 30A, so I will surely be messing with it some more.

**JRTJH** · 10-25-2019, 07:27 AM

You might consider removing the outside outlet/receptacle and try the GFI again. I've seen lots of RV's with a "pinhole leak" in the cover (not in the sealant but in the caps that close the cover) that will let in just enough moisture to set up corrosion on the "slide blade connectors" behind the outlet.

It doesn't take much moisture to make that plug a "nightmare" for GFI troubleshooting......

**flybouy** · 10-25-2019, 07:40 AM

There are several possibilities but it sounds like you narrowed it down to one circuit. Let us know what they find.

LewisB · 11-07-2019, 09:09 AM

GFCI circuits are notoriously sensitive, especially if you plug one GFCI circuit into another GFCI circuit - (learned this from recent experience of using an INverter with GFCI output on the trailer that also had a GFCI output). If I understand your setup, you are plugging your trailer (with a GFCI circuit) into your house GFCI circuit; I'm surprised this ever worked.

Is there a specific reason you want to plug your entire trailer into a GFCI circuit? It's not necessary from a safety standpoint. Is there a place you can plug in your shore power that is NOT already on a GFCI circuit?

If you are installing a new shore service in the spring, I recommend you pay the extra now for a full 50A RV service. Include a normal RV pedestal that includes 50A, 30A, and 20A breakers and outlets. That allows you to upsize your rig in the future and gives you great access (in the shed & yard) for all the power you might need. Well worth the cost of upgrading now.

Just a thought...

DWS · 11-07-2019, 11:52 AM

I had the same issue. Assuming nothing else was changed or altered in your electrical circuits, then this:

You have a Suburban Gas/Electric Hot water heater. At some point you left the electric heating element turned on with no water in the tank. Element burns out quickly and for some reason shorts neutral to ground. This is enough to cause the gfci to trip.

Solution is to replace the heating element or just disconnect the white neutral wire at the element and tape it up.

Thomasbeau · 11-07-2019, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWS

I had the same issue. Assuming nothing else was changed or altered in your electrical circuits, then this:

You have a Suburban Gas/Electric Hot water heater. At some point you left the electric heating element turned on with no water in the tank. Element burns out quickly and for some reason shorts neutral to ground. This is enough to cause the gfci to trip.

Solution is to replace the heating element or just disconnect the white neutral wire at the element and tape it up.

This is exactly a problem I had in the past too. Element burned out and GFCI continually tripped. Bought a new element at Lowes for about $10 and problem went away.

LHaven · 11-07-2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LewisB

GFCI circuits are notoriously sensitive, especially if you plug one GFCI circuit into another GFCI circuit - (learned this from recent experience of using an INverter with GFCI output on the trailer that also had a GFCI output). If I understand your setup, you are plugging your trailer (with a GFCI circuit) into your house GFCI circuit; I'm surprised this ever worked.

So, that allows you to do a quick experiment: in your trailer, locate the plug with the GFCI buttons on it. Hit the test button, opening the circuit. (You may need to have the trailer plugged into a working house outlet to make it trip.)

Now plug the trailer into your house GFCI circuit and see if it holds.

I'm with Lewis -- you shouldn't be plugging your trailer into a home GFCI anyway, it has a GFCI of its own. Yeah, I realize that if all you have available to you are outdoor 15-20A outlets, you may be stuck.

Miloski · 11-07-2019, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arosenwinkel

We've had our 2018 Outback 250URS since June of 2018. When it is parked at home, which is 90% of the time, it has always been plugged in to the same GFI outlet in the garage. In order to do this, I have to stretch the 30A lockable cord from the trailer, three additional 25' 30A extension cords, and finally a 30A-15A dogbone. In a year and a half, we've never had an issue.

We go out last weekend, come home on Sunday evening, and when I plug in the same setup, the GFI trips. I tested cord by cord, each being fine, and it doesn't trip until I get all the way to the trailer and plug it in. I tried a second GFI, on a separate circuit in the house, and it still trips.

I sent it to the dealer, who said they plugged in our lockable 30A and everything was fine. They attempted to get it to fail by turning on A/C, heater, fridge, microwave, etc, but were never able to replicate the scenario.

Lo and behold I get it back home last night, and the same thing happens. I start by plugging in with no extensions, just the 30A lockable with a dogbone, and it trips. I switch to a second dogbone in case thats the weak point, still trips; try two more GFIs, on two more circuits and they all fail.

Dealer says its not in the trailer. Yes, it COULD be in the house, but what are the odds of three GFIs all being bad, on three different circuits?

I'm at a loss. Anybody have any ideas?

Are you plugged in to charged battery and run lights when your in the unit or trying to run the unit on 20 amp at times. Asking as a reference.

David

Roscommon48 · 11-08-2019, 04:17 AM

don't use a GFI, that simple.

arosenwinkel · 12-26-2019, 09:12 AM

FOLLOW UP: Had the trailer in for service a few weeks back. As several had posted, indeed it was the element in the hot water heater that continually shorted to ground. This happening repeatedly ALSO caused a short in the converter. Both were replaced.

Not directly related to the problem at hand, they also replaced the 30amp power receptacle as the wiring was loose, apparently a common problem.

Have it back at the house and tested, sure enough, doesn't flip the GFI when plugged in. Currently unplugged as it sits for the winter; will be installing 30amp power source in the spring regardless.

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