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Old 07-22-2019, 04:53 AM   #41
P&DZ
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Agree, it may not be exactly an apples to apples comparison. But the bottom line is many of these companies have no pride in the product they are delivering or a sense of commitment to the dealers or the end users.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:52 AM   #42
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Think back to the "Gold Rush Days" and compare that to the RV industry rather than trying to compare it to a "basic commodity that everyone must have". We all "must have a quality car or truck". Contractors "must have a quality bull dozer and reliable compressor". Farmers "must have a reliable tractor". Those items are "required to be reliable and are long term investments purchased by consumers." Manufacturers of those products know that someone else is producing a quality product and they have a "standard that must be met" if they expect to compete in the market. Additionally, people who need their product MUST buy from someone who is reliable and can keep their necessary product operating at peak performance so they can continue to meet their daily needs for transportation or tools to perform their profession.

The RV industry isn't in any of those categories. Recreational Vehicles, by their name, are for PLAY (not for work or the ability to survive). The RV industry, whether it's ATV's, UTV's, motorcycles, boats, travel trailers, motorhomes or even some airplanes, are all "toys for play" or "purchases when times are good and there's extra money".... They simply aren't "necessities"....

Travel trailer manufacturers are a "gold rush boom" type industry. They spring up when times are good and "wither and die on the vine" when times are bad. Right now, it's "make as much money for the investors as we can because when the bottom falls out, we'll have to lock the doors and wait for the next boom".....

With a mindset like that, is it a surprise to anyone that Keystone, THOR (the parent company) or any other RV manufacturer is pushing them out the door, trying to meet the consumer demand (quantity) with little regard to what consumers overlook (quality) in their "quest to play".....

Times are good, RV's are being mass produced and investors (those who drive the industry by owning and investing in it) are making money "hand and fist" with products just like they are. There's no incentive for the industry to slow down production, improve quality or manufacture a better product....

Competition in this kind of industry means "put lipstick on the old pig and sell it as better than the competition's old pig".... That's why we're now getting In-Command, Furrion entertainment centers, electric fireplaces, auto-level systems and Key-TV. It's all lipstick put on an old pig during the BOOM !!!!

Who knows if there'll even be a Keystone Alpine or Cougar or Hideout next year? If the economy tanks, so does the RV industry, so they're making as much as they can when times are good. There's an old saying: Make hay while the sun shines. That's the RV industry mentality. As long as they're "making hay" they have NO incentive to change their business model. And, with thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of people waiting in line with credit cards in hand (few have the actual money to buy an RV), consumers are using someone else's money to by a toy they don't need, but want, and are willing to stand in line for their shot at playtime. Don't blame the RV industry for taking advantage of a "good opportunity to make hay".....
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:31 AM   #43
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Well said.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:11 PM   #44
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And when the next bust comes in 2021 or 2022 they will still put out faulty units, just fewer of them.
I go into the purchase of a new RV with my eyes open. After many minor problems with a FR product I got rid of it and bought another with few huge problems. I went to Heartland and unloaded that after just 4 months. Only the 1st of 4 had anything but minor cosmetic problems, a furnace I called Atwood about and not the dealer.
It is luck of the draw. Most units have few problems and we don’t hear of those.
If I had OPs list I’d try to get it back to the factory. Hell, I’d even drive it there from NC. Other than that just trade it in and bite the loss bullet.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:13 PM   #45
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That is my last 4 have been Keystone 5ers. Cougar 1st then Montanas
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Old 07-24-2019, 09:10 AM   #46
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The new additions such as six point level up , In Command, fireplaces , etc have actually been around since 2014.

I don’t have In Command on my 2014 but had we bought any other floor plan it would have... thats one reason we bought the unit we have... no In Command.

It, and some of the other new ideas like KeyTV have a lot of merit... color coded coax separate runs to each TV, etc. trouble is the craftsmanship of the coax connections with no QC to verify correct operation at factory.

Look at the new trucks ... all digital dashes , integrated audio, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc.

If you can do your own troubleshooting and work then in most cases the new RVs are fine. It’s a house on wheels that takes a beating on the roads.

I’ve been watching several different groups with various brand for the last several years. The issues are pretty much across the board with all of them.

Some folks have had tanks falling out, roofs not installed properly, etc.

Look at the new house builds during the housing boom... they ain’t any better
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:36 PM   #47
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I agree. The reason I did not get the Legacy I wanted as they have the In Command. My Cougar had a remote AND switches, that was acceptable.
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Old 07-26-2019, 12:35 PM   #48
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We toured the Keystone plant last year and learned that our Montana was assembled in about one and a half days. Would have been a bit longer if it had a paint finish. We’ve been very fortunate with our 2015 unit and had no serious problems.

The workers start at 5am and knock off at 2pm, so if you go to a bar for happy hour in Elkhart, Indiana you’re going to hear RV workers talking about their day. Regardless of manufacturer, we heard lots of talk about how workers overlooked obvious manufacture problems because it “wasn’t their job” to do the other mechanic’s work. There doesn’t appear to be any checks and balances in the manufacturing process and known deficiencies seem to sail through the production line because it’s all about throughput. We’ve been across country and I’ve never seen so many help wanted signs as in Elkhart, so I doubt many assembly line workers are being let go for poor workmanship.

I was very naive when I purchased our RV (our first). Just got lucky. What I have learned - thanks to this forum - is to not sign on the bottom line until everything checks out.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:28 PM   #49
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Not just Keystone, all are the same. When I see “Amish craftsmanship” I laugh. No such thing beyond milking cows. I’ve been lucky as my last 4 have been Keystone and no major problems. Don’t ask me about FR or Heartland! I’m convinced every factory has a majority that could not be the Fry Guy at McDonalds.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:46 PM   #50
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"The workers start at 5am and knock off at 2pm"

Actually they knock off as soon as their daily quota of rvs out the door is met!
When we were there having warranty work done the mass exodus was about 11:45, looked like ghost town by 12:30!
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:49 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
The title of the thread should've been "RV buyers beware!". You happened to buy a Keystone that is a POS, but the odds of you buying any other make, model, price RV & getting the same problems is about equal. <Snip>
Yep we have a saying RV stands for repair vehicle... here's the meme:



Reminds of when I was in Tucson a few years back kvetching with another motorhome owner about the repairs, and the guy in the next space overheard us as he was walking by. He pointed to his new million dollar Foretravel and said coyly, "Don't think that the high priced coaches don't have their troubles too" and indicated a list as long as his arm.

For sure Keystone should step up to the late on this, but ALL RV's have their issues
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:22 AM   #52
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If you are able to find an attorney for a class action we would be willing to provide all the info on our piece of junk 2019 Fuzion. It has been nothing but issues and Keystone is not willing to work with us
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:40 AM   #53
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Florida, the best info I could find was "Courts generally find numerosity where there are over 40 plaintiffs but far less likely to find numerosity where there are less than 20 plaintiffs. To file a class action lawsuit successfully, it is wise to apply an experienced and skillful class action attorney for help."
Good luck in your hunt. I hope you have your dealer running interference for you. The dealer generally needs to be your spokesman.
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:04 AM   #54
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And the class action attorney's will reap the largest benefit.

While there certainly are lemons out there and manufactures should be held accountable, I think some folks have an unrealistic expectation when purchasing a RV. If you expect a "high end" build quality go visit an Airstream dealer. Or give Flyte Camp a call and find out what that quality will cost. The "champagne taste on a beer budget" will always end in disappointment.
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:29 AM   #55
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And the class action attorney's will reap the largest benefit.

Keystone also has "attorneys", probably a big building full & even if yours could build a successful case it will most likely cost you more than a new RV + be tied up in litigation til you're too old to use it. But your lawyer still gets paid!!!
I'm sorry so many are getting into something that's so unsatisfactory, but unfortunately the RV industry hasn't changed in the last 10-15 years so some research is required along with a good set of tools, a little mechanical ability & a credit card & will be cheaper than a lawyer in the long run. UNLESS you have an ambulance chasing brother in law!!
The title of this thread is "Keystone buyers beware!", truthfully remove Keystone & replace with ANY manufacturer you could name & will be true as well. There's actually only 2-3 manufacturer holding companies out there & not one is much better than the other. They all build in the same geographic area by the same bunch of folks with no formal training, not much pay, paid by piece work & once the daily quota is out the door they go home. Even if there were a handful of folks on the line willing/wanting to do a better job they couldn't hold up the line to do so, the rest are hurrying to get the hell out.
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Old 09-06-2021, 02:52 PM   #56
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I feel your pain. We purchased a 2021 alpine 3700FL new. I have had several issues, AC with no flow because returns blocked with foam, shower drain not connected to drain pipe 2” off was bent over and a couple of threads forced on of course it came loose noticed when water flooded out bottom of RV, can’t open and close black tank drain on one of the black tanks, trim falling off not stapled, AC vents with foam and tape restricting flow, low spot on roof in front of AC where water pools. I have called dealer three hours away says bring it in, but I am using it to stay in while on a job. Not an option. Mobile repair, keystone hard on those guys or you cough up cash to pay them then you fight with keystone for reimbursement, not an easy process. I am coming to the conclusion warranty isn’t worth much unless you can drop your camper off for months at a time. Otherwise you are on your own. Disappointed. Have talked with dealer, keystone and authorized repair mobile service. No real help. Fixed the shower myself so I could take showers. About to get into replacing the black tank cable so we can use the 1/2 bath commode. Disappointed in build quality.
We have only owned this thing less than two months.
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Old 09-06-2021, 03:06 PM   #57
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I feel your pain. We purchased a 2021 alpine 3700FL new. I have had several issues... Mobile repair, keystone hard on those guys or you cough up cash to pay them then you fight with keystone for reimbursement, not an easy process. I am coming to the conclusion warranty isn’t worth much unless you can drop your camper off for months at a time. Otherwise you are on your own. Disappointed. Have talked with dealer, keystone and authorized repair mobile service. No real help... Disappointed in build quality. We have only owned this thing less than two months.
There's already a free-market solution to this problem, but unfortunately it requires buyers to know about its existence. If dealers around the country had to step up to the plate to fix all the factory defects that seasoned professionals find in their units, before the buyers accepted delivery, you would see unbelievable pressure being put on the factory to get it right the first time.

As for me, I'd rather pay high three figures for a pro like this to get me a good rig than pay the same or more for a meaningless warranty full of exclusions. Alas, I did not know about these pros before purchasing, either. If there ever is a next time, I will not make that mistake again.
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Old 09-06-2021, 04:08 PM   #58
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O.k, I'll bite. Do you really think it's Keystone or just a run of bad luck with your particular unit. Your issues are WAY excessive. Id be ticked also, but they are trying to take care of it and correct your issues. Hopefully it comes back to you in a correct, everything working, state. I've said it before my previous two rvs were Forest River products that I had stellar good fortune with. Both units never gave me a seconds concern really. However On their board, every now and then you would read a post much like yours saying to beware, they are horrible, etc..In fact I have read more than one account of folks spending near 200K on upper end RV'S and still having ridiculous issues. I try to be a glass 1/2 full type of guy.. Most times I succeed at it. Look at it this way, Your retired, That in itself is Frecon Awesome! The fact that youa re able to buy a fairly nice RV says you have a good life. Just relax, breath and Enjoy that retirement you worked so hard for. Don't ever let some material item grab a hold of you to the point it controls you. It's just wood with a few light switches and a microwave you tow down the road.

I realize this is a couple year old post but man that is some sage advice…it’s a really good way to look at any problem
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Old 09-06-2021, 04:12 PM   #59
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There's already a free-market solution to this problem, but unfortunately it requires buyers to know about its existence. If dealers around the country had to step up to the plate to fix all the factory defects that seasoned professionals find in their units, before the buyers accepted delivery, you would see unbelievable pressure being put on the factory to get it right the first time.

As for me, I'd rather pay high three figures for a pro like this to get me a good rig than pay the same or more for a meaningless warranty full of exclusions. Alas, I did not know about these pros before purchasing, either. If there ever is a next time, I will not make that mistake again.
Wife’s cousin used a rv inspector/surveyer for their Grand Design Momentum that they ordered ( first time rvers) ..he found a few problems and there was a impasse and the rig sat at the dealers before they would sign for it.
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