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Old 10-13-2022, 08:07 PM   #1
Salty25
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Lithium Batteries

I have a 2021 24RDS; it came with a solar system installed. The solar has been good at keeping the batteries charged since we purchased it.

I am thinking of switching to Lithium batteries; the Battleborn with onboard heater.

The 5er has a Zamp ZS-30A and a Xantrex Freedom X2000.

I went to CW to find out getting the batteries and having them installed. They suggested I get the Expion 360 batteries, since that is what they sell, instead of the BB. They also said I may have to get a different charging system for the Lithium batteries.

I have seen threads of others that have put the BB batteries into their Cougars but no mention of if they had to install a different charging system. I know Lithium batteries need a different charger than AGM or Lead Acid batteries but thought either the Zamp or Xantrex, if not both, only needed to have indicated in their settings.

CW quoted me $3500 min to get this done. Is this what is normally being paid? I was thinking about $2000 for the batteries and a couple hundred for install. Only reason I considered going to CW was to have them deal with disposing of the batteries after they are removed.

Thanks for any tips or info.
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Old 10-14-2022, 12:12 AM   #2
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I have a 2021 Cougar 26RBS that I upgraded from lead acid to 2 x 100ah BattleBorn heated lithium batteries and upgraded the converter to a WFCO WF-9855LIS (trailer came with a WFCO-9855)... Trailer also has 2000 watt inverter and 175 watt solar panels/charger already built in. System works great. I also added a Victron shunt to monitor battery status which helps management a lot. $1500 batteries (sale), $130 shunt, $275 converter (lithium option), $50 group 27 cases... Sold the nearly new Interstate RV lead/acid batteries with cases for $150 and the converter for $125...

Love the system... Working great... :-)
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Old 10-14-2022, 02:49 AM   #3
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Very different camper but I purchased two AmpereTime LIFePO4 100 a/h batteries and just finished my second season on them. Much less money than the BB ones and work great.

I did need to buy a new charger, I don't know about the one on your camper, but they need chargers designed for them. Here's links to what I bought.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...e?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They do sell a heated version too.

https://www.amazon.com/Ampere-Time-S...st_sto_dp&th=1
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Old 10-14-2022, 09:06 AM   #4
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Just wanted to make sure you understand, the Zamp charges the batteries from the solar, you did not list the model of AC to DC charger, normally located with your circuit breakers. You need to confirm that charger is also able to be set for lithium’s
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Old 10-14-2022, 09:30 AM   #5
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Just wanted to make sure you understand, the Zamp charges the batteries from the solar, you did not list the model of AC to DC charger, normally located with your circuit breakers. You need to confirm that charger is also able to be set for lithium’s
I knew the Zamp is for the solar panel. I saw that it runs to the Xantrex and that is hooked directly to the batteries.

I'm not sure about the AC to DC charger, I'll look to see what is by the breaker panel. That's why I thought I'd ask. Didn't want to buy a bunch of stuff and then be stuck or worse cause some serious damage.

Thanks.
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Old 10-14-2022, 09:49 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by pasayten View Post
I have a 2021 Cougar 26RBS that I upgraded from lead acid to 2 x 100ah BattleBorn heated lithium batteries and upgraded the converter to a WFCO WF-9855LIS (trailer came with a WFCO-9855)... Trailer also has 2000 watt inverter and 175 watt solar panels/charger already built in. System works great. I also added a Victron shunt to monitor battery status which helps management a lot. $1500 batteries (sale), $130 shunt, $275 converter (lithium option), $50 group 27 cases... Sold the nearly new Interstate RV lead/acid batteries with cases for $150 and the converter for $125...

Love the system... Working great... :-)
I'm sure those are going to be the items that I need. I figured there were some things that would need to be changed out or added, just didn't know what.

Mind listing the model numbers of what you used? I'm going to see what AC-DC charger I have in there now. Then I'll figure out what will fit in that foot print so I don't have to do much mods on the space.

Thanks.
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Old 10-15-2022, 11:24 PM   #7
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I mentioned the model numbers for the ac/dc charger... Footprint and wiring was an exact match. The "LIS" model has a jumper feature to enable the lithium charging profile. Based on the same year Keystone Cougartrailer we have, the original charger probably is the same that I switched out for the LIS model

The Victron Shunt was the Victron Energy SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth).

You will need group 27 battery cases (originals were group 24)... On the trailer tongue, they were a very tight fit due to larger size. Bought a couple of battery cables to wire in the shunt and make everything fit. As the shunt ended up being on the trailer tongue and exposed to weather, I put it in a small weather tight box with holes for the wires to protect it and bungied it to one of the battery caes. Has worked great in rainy weather.


BattleBorns were the 12V LiFePO4 100ah Heated Batteries... Note that around Thanksgiving they may be on sale black Friday... I got mine in 2021 for about $750 ea... Never hurts to call them about sale prices either... They also sell the Victron shunt and gave me a deal... :-)
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Old 10-16-2022, 06:20 AM   #8
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Personally for me we run two GC2 batteries.. Current ones are Costco and cost me $89 a piece 8 years ago.. I will replace these next spring before start of new season at a cost of $99 each..

I would rather use the money spent for Lithium batteries, a new converter and DC to DC charger for the truck on more useful things... Such as diesel fuel, tires for the truck, new Bilstein shocks...

Yes the lithium batteries are lighter in weight and require minimal maintenance... But I add water 4 times a year and clean the battery terminals and cables.. 10 minutes time spent
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Old 10-16-2022, 07:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
I have a 2021 24RDS; it came with a solar system installed.
The 5er has a Zamp ZS-30A and a Xantrex Freedom X2000.
Sounds like you have the Solar Flex 400i package. I also have that package in my 2022 24RDS and it included the Victron Smart Shunt. If the 2021 and 2022 systems are the same, you already have the Smart Shunt along with the solar charger and inverter. The only thing you need to investigate before installing LiFePo4's is the converter.

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Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
I have seen threads of others that have put the BB batteries into their Cougars but no mention of if they had to install a different charging system.
I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that Keystone uses a lithium capable converter in all their units that have the solar package since the lithium battery option is available for all of them also. The question becomes which model converter do you have - - a lithium only converter (doubtful, I think); a converter that requires you to change a jumper or switch; an auto conveter that switches to lithium automatically if lithium is detected.

I finally located my converter and it is a deck mount unit buried far, far under the stove. Impossible to get to without pulling the stove. My best guess is that it looks like a WFCO 9855-AD. But I am not sure because it is so hard to see that I can't see/read any of the labels on it. If it is the auto-detect model I have concerns about it. From googling and watching youtube videos, the most numerous complaint about the WFCO auto-detect model is that it always seems to default to lead acid battery settings even if you have lithium's installed - - - unless the lithium's are deeply - very deeply - discharged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
I'm going to see what AC-DC charger I have in there now. Then I'll figure out what will fit in that foot print so I don't have to do much mods on the space.
I will be watching for what you find. It will be interesting to see if your converter is unreachable, too. Also if you can determine exactly which model you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
I am thinking of switching to Lithium batteries; the Battleborn with onboard heater. . . . . . CW quoted me $3500 min to get this done.
Battleborn seem to be the gold standard but they are also expensive. There are other good quality batteries available for much, much less - - - SOK, Ampere Time, Renogy, etc.. I just bought a 206ah SOK w/ heater & bluetooth for $1200. Two similar Battleborn 100ah batteries are on sale on the Battleborn website - - - for $1748. Their 270ah one is on sale for $2375. The difference in price would pay for a new converter if you decided you needed one. The Expion batteries that CW wants to sell you list for $1099 - each - on their website. That's even more than the Battleborn web price.

If you purchased something other than Battleborn (or Expion) online AND a new converter and did the work yourself you could probably get it done for $1100 - $1500.
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Old 10-16-2022, 12:25 PM   #10
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We were gone for a few days with some friends for one last trip before storing for the winter.

Thanks pasayten for the info. The info on a working system just makes it easier and I don't have to re-invent the wheel, or do a lot of research to see what would go with other items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut View Post
Sounds like you have the Solar Flex 400i package. I also have that package in my 2022 24RDS and it included the Victron Smart Shunt. If the 2021 and 2022 systems are the same, you already have the Smart Shunt along with the solar charger and inverter. The only thing you need to investigate before installing LiFePo4's is the converter.
At one point I thought the system was installed by Keystone. But I called them and they said according to my VIN the solar system was not installed by them. The stickers on the side, next to the door, only say "Zamp Solar Ready" not that it has a solar system.

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I will be watching for what you find. It will be interesting to see if your converter is unreachable, too. Also if you can determine exactly which model you have.
I didn't pull the panel to see what was behind, or under, the circuit breakers. But there is a sticker on the panel that says WFCO Model WF-8930/50.

I think the Zamp has an option for Lithium batteries in its settings. So the only thing I need to verify is which converter I will go with. I'll call WFCO and see if a new converter comes with a sticker of some sort to mark what is installed. I don't think I should leave the sticker indicating WF-8930 in case I have to get someone else to do some work at some point.

Thanks again everyone.
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Old 10-16-2022, 02:15 PM   #11
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Personally for me we run two GC2 batteries.. Current ones are Costco and cost me $89 a piece 8 years ago.. I will replace these next spring before start of new season at a cost of $99 each..

I would rather use the money spent for Lithium batteries, a new converter and DC to DC charger for the truck on more useful things... Such as diesel fuel, tires for the truck, new Bilstein shocks...

Yes the lithium batteries are lighter in weight and require minimal maintenance... But I add water 4 times a year and clean the battery terminals and cables.. 10 minutes time spent

I agree.
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Old 10-16-2022, 03:18 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
We were gone for a few days with some friends for one last trip before storing for the winter.

Thanks pasayten for the info. The info on a working system just makes it easier and I don't have to re-invent the wheel, or do a lot of research to see what would go with other items.



At one point I thought the system was installed by Keystone. But I called them and they said according to my VIN the solar system was not installed by them. The stickers on the side, next to the door, only say "Zamp Solar Ready" not that it has a solar system.



I didn't pull the panel to see what was behind, or under, the circuit breakers. But there is a sticker on the panel that says WFCO Model WF-8930/50.

I think the Zamp has an option for Lithium batteries in its settings. So the only thing I need to verify is which converter I will go with. I'll call WFCO and see if a new converter comes with a sticker of some sort to mark what is installed. I don't think I should leave the sticker indicating WF-8930 in case I have to get someone else to do some work at some point.

Thanks again everyone.
I believe that WF8930/50 is the distribution center not the converter. At least it has been in my last 3 trailers. This WF8930/50 had a deck mounted 75-amp converter which was not Lithium rated deep in the bowels of the basement.
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Old 10-16-2022, 06:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I didn't pull the panel to see what was behind, or under, the circuit breakers. But there is a sticker on the panel that says WFCO Model WF-8930/50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
I believe that WF8930/50 is the distribution center not the converter. At least it has been in my last 3 trailers. This WF8930/50 had a deck mounted 75-amp converter which was not Lithium rated deep in the bowels of the basement.
Yeah - - my panel has a label that says WFCO WF-8930/50 too. When I pulled the cover I discovered that the lower shelf, where the actual converter (main board assembly - aka MBA) would be installed was empty. Just a whole lot of nothing. After I got a flashlight and laid on my stomach and twisted and turned a bit I finally saw the actual converter, a deck/floor mount unit, deep, deep in the bowels of the space under the stove. It looks like one of the auto detect units (AD designater). I'll have to pull the stove to be sure.
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Old 10-17-2022, 05:20 AM   #14
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Our '22 Cougar with the 400i package does NOT have a lithium compatible converter. I thought it might be an issue at first but the solar charge converter has worked fantastic and always keeps them topped off. I went with a pair of Enduro Baja 200ah batteries and couldn't be happier with how the setup has performed. The only time I need the generator is if I want to run the air condition or microwave. We run the compressor off the inverter, vacuum, everything else. The only cost was the batteries and making a bracket to hold them in place (I used 1" angle aluminum that I found at Lowes).
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:38 AM   #15
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It looks like one of the auto detect units (AD designater). I'll have to pull the stove to be sure.
I found out the converter is under the stove, behind the electrical panel. I also came across a youtube video on how to remove the stove. It looked easy, showed six screws holding it in place.
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:44 AM   #16
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Our '22 Cougar with the 400i package does NOT have a lithium compatible converter. I thought it might be an issue at first but the solar charge converter has worked fantastic and always keeps them topped off. I went with a pair of Enduro Baja 200ah batteries and couldn't be happier with how the setup has performed. The only time I need the generator is if I want to run the air condition or microwave. We run the compressor off the inverter, vacuum, everything else. The only cost was the batteries and making a bracket to hold them in place (I used 1" angle aluminum that I found at Lowes).
My understanding is the Zamp controller will charge lithium batteries, but you should change the setting to the correct battery type.

Using shore power without the correct charger type could be dangerous. I've heard that using the wrong type of charger on lithium batteries can cause a fire. Lithium batteries burn VERY hot.
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Old 10-17-2022, 09:53 AM   #17
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My understanding is the Zamp controller will charge lithium batteries, but you should change the setting to the correct battery type.

Using shore power without the correct charger type could be dangerous. I've heard that using the wrong type of charger on lithium batteries can cause a fire. Lithium batteries burn VERY hot.
From what I understand, they just cant fully charge the lithiums since the peak detection is much lower.
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Old 10-18-2022, 01:42 PM   #18
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From what I understand, they just cant fully charge the lithiums since the peak detection is much lower.
I've heard that as well.

It may be a different type of lithium that I am thinking about. I'm no expert on the setup which is why I come here to ask.

If someone, like pasayten, says they have a setup like I am looking for then why not go with that?


I'm about to winterize and pull the batteries out. So I think I'll just open up things and see which converter I have in there and get the parts I need to set it all up.
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Old 10-18-2022, 03:24 PM   #19
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I've heard that as well.

It may be a different type of lithium that I am thinking about. I'm no expert on the setup which is why I come here to ask.

If someone, like pasayten, says they have a setup like I am looking for then why not go with that?


I'm about to winterize and pull the batteries out. So I think I'll just open up things and see which converter I have in there and get the parts I need to set it all up.
I'm not advising to change it or not, just saying it wasn't needed for our setup. The 400i has really impressed me with its ability to keep the batteries charged.
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Old 10-21-2022, 06:24 AM   #20
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Costco. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty25 View Post
I have a 2021 24RDS; it came with a solar system installed. The solar has been good at keeping the batteries charged since we purchased it.

I am thinking of switching to Lithium batteries; the Battleborn with onboard heater.

The 5er has a Zamp ZS-30A and a Xantrex Freedom X2000.

I went to CW to find out getting the batteries and having them installed. They suggested I get the Expion 360 batteries, since that is what they sell, instead of the BB. They also said I may have to get a different charging system for the Lithium batteries.

I have seen threads of others that have put the BB batteries into their Cougars but no mention of if they had to install a different charging system. I know Lithium batteries need a different charger than AGM or Lead Acid batteries but thought either the Zamp or Xantrex, if not both, only needed to have indicated in their settings.

CW quoted me $3500 min to get this done. Is this what is normally being paid? I was thinking about $2000 for the batteries and a couple hundred for install. Only reason I considered going to CW was to have them deal with disposing of the batteries after they are removed.

Thanks for any tips or info.
You can get 2 Lion 105 AH lithium bats for around $1,300 shipped to your house. Worth joining if you aren’t a member. Great batteries and get very positive reviews by utubers. I turned my agm bats into a national auto parts store For a $10 credit each.
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