RV Park Power Issues

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Shedboy

Auto-former won't do the job -


1. Autoformer output varies proportionally to input, as the input voltage varies, so does the output voltage. If the autoformer is set up when the line voltage is low a sudden rise in line voltage (all the other RVs leave the park) the autoformer will amplify the increased voltage to the remaining RV, an undesirable situation.

This incorrect, it will not overvoltage. If the line voltage is withing the paramaters it will simply pass it thru.

There may be some other name rather than "autoformer" for an ACTIVE device (a device that consumes energy) that would keep the output voltage constant but the energy (WATTS) in the system remains constant, (law of conservation of energy) e.i. the current (amps) would decrease.
Autoformer is a brand name.. The devicce is simply a boost transformer.
Off into the weeds - keep in mind that in AC circuits there is a forth attribute, POWER FACTOR, that is in play. Unlikely in this case but again, nothing can be done at the RV space other than alternative power source.

2. Correct Ohms Law for current is Amps (current) = Watts (power) / (divided by) E (voltage), I=W/E Ohms Law is a simple mathematical equation that can be written in several variants using middle school algebra. I try to keep things simple when your reader isn'tfamiliar with the subject.
3. Because the deficiency occurs for multiple RV spaces, the problem is likely to be upstream of any one RV pedestal.
4. Because the Park technician can't wait for the season to be over to repair the problem indicates the problem is in-between the utility company power lines and the pedestals (RV Park electrical distribution panels or possible ground loop). Nothing can repair the problem at the RV space other than employing an alternative power source - generator, solar panels or wind turbine.
5. Beware of a potential (unlikely) safety issue, the possibility of a ground loop condition associated with the neutral (green) wire. The neutral wire is always white. The ground is green on an insulated wire or bare wire on a solid wire installation. Measure the AC voltage between the RV frame and the pedestal metal utility box. It should be zero. A remedy to this possible condition would be to ground the RV frame to a metal RV Park water pipe using a battery jumper cable. This condition is unlikely because the problem seems to be associated with several RV spaces. Again, the problem seems to be upstream of the pedestals.

See my comments in red for some clarifications.

[Shedboy]

Re: Autoformer:

Sorry for the confusion between Autoformer and Autotransformer,

Note the following:



1. Neither is a brand name.
2. As indicated "autoformer" is an active device (dissipates energy) and consists of several electrical components.

3. In this universe, the law of conservation of energy is unbroken.
4. The energy output of a closed system (autoformer) will ALWAYS be less that the input, exacerbating the RV Pedestal issue, not improving it.
5. The "auto" (Greek for "self") prefix refers to a single coil acting alone, not to any kind of automatic mechanism. (The nomenclature is self-contradictory, "auto" excludes all but one electrical component).

Autotransformer:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia










Single-phase tapped autotransformer with an output voltage range of 40%–115% of input


An autotransformer is an electrical transformer with only one winding. The "auto" (Greek for "self") prefix refers to the single coil acting alone, not to any kind of automatic mechanism. In an autotransformer, portions of the same winding act as both the primary winding and secondary winding sides of the transformer. In contrast, an ordinary transformer has separate primary and secondary windings which have no metallic conducting path between them.
The autotransformer winding has at least three taps where electrical connections are made. Since part of the winding does "double duty", autotransformers have the advantages of often being smaller, lighter, and cheaper than typical dual-winding transformers, but the disadvantage of not providing electrical isolation between primary and secondary circuits. Other advantages of autotransformers include lower leakage reactance, lower losses, lower excitation current, and increased VA rating for a given size and mass.[1]





OHMS LAW:
1. A prior member posting misstated Ohms Law as


"OHM's law states a very simple equation. Amps=Vonts x Watts"


This is incorrect, I posted a graceful correction for this misstatement.
Technically, for this situation, the correct and simple equation is Amps = watts/impedance (I=P/Z).





2. The neutral wire is always white


Correct! or it is supposed to be always white. The ground loop defect condition referred to could include the white wire, the bare wire or the green wire (if there is one), all are subject to a ground loop conditions. A reversed white and green may cause a ground loop. However, since multiple pedestals are effected, any ground loop condition is probably upstream of the pedestals, possibly no earth ground at the distribution point? If the white wire is broken, the bare wire is trying to do the work, a dangerous condition.



Above assumes that the pedestals are a 4 wire system, not antiquated 3 wire system. Does each pedestal have its own earth ground? In either case, grounding the RV frame to an earth ground is a good safety practice if something isn't right the occupants are thereby protected. Stepping from an RV steel stair step onto the wet dirt can be an electrifying experience.

[hawghauler]

My on an 5500 burns 10 gallons of gasoline in a 25 HR period
If I paid for full hookups I'd expect a reimbrsement for fuel and wear and tear on my equipment

[Shedboy]

Re Ohms LAw ;


The correct equation is
This is incorrect, I posted a graceful correction for this misstatement.
Technically, for this situation, the correct and simple equation is Amps = watts/impedance (I=P/Z).


CORRECTION Amps = sqr root (watts divided by impedance)



ignoring power factor

[wiredgeorge]

Am I going to have to pay for this education? I thought formula was what you used to be able to give to a baby but the country kinda ran out?

[Shedboy]

Yea - I still have a table lamp with 2 conductor cloth covered twisted pair wires and a 2 prong plug that will fit into a receptacle in either direction. Seems like RV's could benefit from an advancement in simplicity like "plug n play". (Trigonometry not required.)

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Shedboy

Re: Autoformer:

Sorry for the confusion between Autoformer and Autotransformer,

Note the following:



1. Neither is a brand name.

Just an fyi:

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50-epo/

Note upper left corner of website.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Just an fyi:

https://hughesautoformers.com/product/pwd50-epo/

Note upper left corner of website.

What are you trying to point out for those of us that see nothing worth noting? They have a menu bar and pictures of their gizmo below.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

What are you trying to point out for those of us that see nothing worth noting? They have a menu bar and pictures of their gizmo below.

I just noted that "Hughes AUTOFORMERS" is a brand name.

[Shedboy]

Here are the top three most popular and well-rated autoformer brands that deliver a consistent and top-notch quality result. There are only a few of them, so picking the right one is essential.

• Hughes Autoformers – founded by an RV enthusiast in 1995. Hughes, the founder, also experienced himself the low voltage and even fluctuating supply that can be provided by RV campsites. He also had to deal with damaged electrical devices, so he created his autotransformer, which eventually also helped thousands of other RVers. The results of his highly reliable autoformers are results of his first-hand experiences.
• Southwire – this company has a wide array of electrical connections and devices used for transmission. They have various cords and connectors, including voltage regulators.
• InnoTechRV – their single autoformer, the Power Master VC-50, is worth checking. It is a reliable combo of an auto-transformer and a surge protector"

Note:



1. Multiple manufacturers define their product as "autoformers". Hughs uses the terms "autoformer" and "autotransformer" interchangeably for the same product, technically incorrect, or is it?. No manufacturer designates either term with a copywrite symbol that indicates a BRAND or copywrite name.


2. More germane to the issue is the lack of mention of Ground Fault Interrupters (GFI). All modern RV pedestals have GFI's and ganged GFI's are used somewhere on the 220VAC distribution. One contributor explained how modern circuit breakers work, GFI's work on the ground/neutral wires. I'll bet that there isn't a GFI on the park grounds.

[flybouy]

I sure hope this helped clear up the OP's issue. This de-railement went over a bridge into a canyon.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I sure hope this helped clear up the OP's issue. This de-railement went over a bridge into a canyon.

i’d suggest the op print out this thread in its entirety and show it to the campground manager….that should help to explain his problem

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jasin1

i’d suggest the op print out this thread in its entirety and show it to the campground manager….that should help to explain his problem

And, if it doesn't, with all the "pages and pages of fodder" he can use the paper to start a campfire to have some light around the trailer until his generator recharges his battery and he can turn the lights back on......

[Life-in-Him]

Originally Posted by hlh1

For Giggles I tested the line again at 27 amps and received 108 volts ac.

Edit:
After entering the comments below agter comment #54, I see others posted similar comments & the OP said there was no 15/20 socket. Oh well, I guess age developes impatience or patience galore
Temp, or socket condition still stand.
We also use a Hughes Autoformer (30 amp) & a Hughes Power Watchdog which do control the input voltage & max current well.

Out of curiosity, have you measured the voltage on the pedestal 15/20 amp outlet under the same conditions showing that 108V?
Also do you have a digital thermometer? Does it read the socket or part of it higher than the socket mount?
Was the socket discolored when you plugged in?

All of these are signs of pedestal &/or maintenance issues.

[Shedboy]

Agree w Flybouy - This is a shot-in-the-dark but the situation is potentially dangerous.



Many aerial power line neutral wires are coaxial, they have an aluminum center conductor inside of a braided steel sheath. The aluminum carries the electricity and the steel carries the physical weight of the cable. The neutral wire will always have current flowing while the branch wires will have discontinuous or variable current flow.



In beachfront areas the salt-air continuously bathes the aerial power lines feeding the facility. After many years the galvanic action between the steel and aluminum, enhanced by the salt (sodium chloride), will corrode the aluminum until nothing is left but the steel braid. The neutral wire will dissolve before the others because it is carrying electricity continuously.



The result is the conditions that you describe, called an unbalanced line, where all of the pedestals will be affected, some with higher voltage and some with lower voltage depending on which side of the remaining power line is feeding them, how many RV's are connected and the integrity of the RV's earth ground that is now carrying the electricity normally carried by the missing aluminum core wire via the pedestal white wire.



This is a dangerous condition. Sometimes the power line aluminum core wire is completely gone and only the remaining rusted steel braid remains, this condition is visible from the ground, you can see through the steel braid. Keep your RV tied to an earth ground!

[hlh1]

Update: While at another RV park last week I was able to see 121 VAC at 30 amps on the EMS. So, my trailer system is ok.

[hlh1]

UPDATE: We've returned to the same campground and they have greatly improved the power situation. I see where the power company has added additional transformers in the area I was having trouble. I'm now seeing 123 volts at 30 amps, Perfect!

[wiredgeorge]

Glad to hear the campground got it sorted. We went camping weekend before last and was given a spot by the owner who I know pretty well. Pulled in and there was nada on the meter (the power company meter). Busy-body gal from the next spot over ran over and told me to flip the breakers and I thanked her and pointed out there was no power at the pedestal. Since the owner wasn't there, she ran over to the main power panel for the park and threw the breaker for the spot I was supposed to set up at and sparks flew. She mentioned an electrician had been there the day before. I thanked the gal and texted the owner and hopefully the pedestal got its issue sorted; I parked in another spot with not issues except they didn't have 30A and I had to use an adapter but all was well and we enjoyed camping. Didn't even need to run our portable A/C... very comfy weather.