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Old 06-15-2020, 05:12 AM   #61
flybouy
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Originally Posted by kcordell57 View Post
And I'll interject 2 thoughts on this(as I may be in the same type situation, but won't acknowledge due to the "weight police").
From a reputable RV magazine:
1. There is NO SUCH THING as a 1/2 ton towable 5th wheel, despite what a given auto or RV manufacturer tells you.
2. Half of ALL 5th wheels on the road are overweight somewhere.

After hashing weight #'s myself for the last 9 months and talks with many people, including auto engineers that I know, I believe the 2nd point to be true. Seems everybody doesn't care about GVWR, just payload when the GVWR is the more important #.
And to start another arguement, from one of the auto engineers that told me that the weight #'s have lots of 'fudge factor' built into them, a way to calculate a truer GVWR, with your weight ticket subtract the empty RAW from 'hooked up' RAW and add to your GVW. That # is a real world GVWR.
Example:
RAW with camper 6340
RAWR - 3460

= 2880
GVW(truck ready to hook up to camper) + 8560

Real world GVWR 11440
I was going to remain a spectator at ringside but I want to add something that I think may be helpful. First I don't know of any engineer that uses the term "fudge factor". I would challenge any "self proclaimed engineer" to put that in writing. That being said, when referencing maximum load numbers you first must define the load. Is is a static load, a live load, a compression load, a suspending load, a shock load, etc. Then the parameters and the methodology used of the test being used to determine the results. That's why different industries use "standards" to take the measurements.

Let's consider the manufacturers of say load chain, the type of chains used on a chain fall, load binder, etc. The manufacturer will test the chain being manufactured to a value that does exceed the minimum for that size/class of chain. Now when they first certified the chain (tested differing compounds of steel, different temperatures and manufacturing processes,etc.) they may have tested thousands of samples. That max number is a number where NONE of the samples failed. They know that if they set their publicized max number say 10% below that (a totally arbitrary number) that the odds of that chain ever failing is infinitesimal. That zone of numbers between what they set as max and the 10% over is a "safety margin" and not a "reserve capacity" "fudge factor" or any other semantic you choose to use for any use.

So the max ratings on that door tag are basically determined in a similar manner. They are not "guide lines", "recommendations" or an endorsement that "it's O.K. if you go way over these numbers if your going a short distance a few times a year and drive 55 m.p.h.".

So bottom line to me is that I don't care what decisions you make that effect you. If you are driving your rig on your private road do what you like but when the rubber hits the public highway where others travel then I have a real issue with folks endangering the innocents, especially when it's done knowingly.
JMHO
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:24 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
I was going to remain a spectator at ringside but I want to add something that I think may be helpful. First I don't know of any engineer that uses the term "fudge factor".
I don't disagree, but I'm thinking "fudge factor" is more of a laymen's term for "safety factor".
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:27 AM   #63
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His statement was "And to start another arguement, from one of the auto engineers that told me that the weight #'s have lots of 'fudge factor' built into them.."
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:27 AM   #64
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Oh, good! We can do the same thing at our local land fill - they will allow anyone to get accurate weights at no charge. That is how I got the HONEST weight of my truck. It was nowhere close to the 'book' figures. Much lighter - even with a full load of fuel and people.



Thank you for clearing that up for me!
Your landfill scales are only concerned with how much you dumped & will only give you total weight, not per axle.
At truck stop Cat scales for about $10-12 you can weigh all axles, both truck & RVs, at the same time, then unhook & drive only the truck onto them, be sure to let them know inside your doing a reweigh for a lesser charge.
You will then have all the important weight numbers necessary to make a good honest determination of enough truck or not.
And NO, never stop at those scales along the highway, they're for commercial use only.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
His statement was "And to start another arguement, from one of the auto engineers that told me that the weight #'s have lots of 'fudge factor' built into them.."
It would be a bit difficult to convince a judge & jury in the event of an accident of how much of a "fudge factor" was designed into your "posted" numbers, mine tag states "must not exceed".
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Old 06-15-2020, 10:15 AM   #66
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It would be a bit difficult to convince a judge & jury in the event of an accident of how much of a "fudge factor" was designed into your "posted" numbers, mine tag states "must not exceed".
And it's not just YOUR tag/owner's manual that states that. Every single truck manufacturer will clearly state....repeatedly throughout the manual to NEVER exceed ANY of the rated load capacities of the truck....and I'm sure that you already knew that, but I still added that for clarification purposes.
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:37 PM   #67
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Just a question, not to side anywhere. Did the whole payload/tire inflation stickers come about from the Ford/Firestone debacle?
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:43 PM   #68
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I should not have used the term sticker. I was referring to that beautiful brochure folks look at in the rv showroom to get the "specs" for the trailer they are looking at. That pin weight they give you there is based on dry weight I believe.

Another problem I think may happen to new RV shoppers is the way truck ads emphasize towing power. This truck can pull 25,000 lbs. I don't think I have ever seen a tv ad or read one or had a salesman ever mention payload.

I thought I had more than enough truck when I bought mine. Then I landed here and got my weight education. I got my set up weighed and came to the real world. I'm OK on payload but not by the margin I would like.



I don't think pulling is the problem cuz you take the time needed to get moving. It's the stopping or going down hill where the trailer can push or even turn the truck that you never see advertised,


Wonder if Ford would ever answer a question on stopping distance with a truck empty, at GVWR and at GCWR. Bet not.
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:45 PM   #69
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Just a question, not to side anywhere. Did the whole payload/tire inflation stickers come about from the Ford/Firestone debacle?



Tire placard just changed color in 2001 but I don't recall the numbers being new.


In 2017 RVIA increased the Reserve Load of tires vs GAWR from 0% margin to 10% margin
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:47 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
His statement was "And to start another arguement, from one of the auto engineers that told me that the weight #'s have lots of 'fudge factor' built into them.."



Wonder what cars / trucks that person is responsible to design. There are actual "cup holder" engineers so you need more details.
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
Tire placard just changed color in 2001 but I don't recall the numbers being new.


In 2017 RVIA increased the Reserve Load of tires vs GAWR from 0% margin to 10% margin
My 1994 Does not list “Payload” just GVWR and axles
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Old 06-15-2020, 01:55 PM   #72
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Guess I could have Wicki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_and_Ford_tire_controversy
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:02 PM   #73
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If you are talking about the roadside scales that the trucks pull into the answer is "NO." Only commercial vehicles are required to stop there.
If they are open, only commercial trucks can stop, But in Oregon, Washington and Colorado the scales are left on even when closed to commercial vehicles. This is when you can slide in with your RV and do a quick scale. You will need pen and paper as there will not be a scale slip.
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:22 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Fishsizzle View Post
Just a question, not to side anywhere. Did the whole payload/tire inflation stickers come about from the Ford/Firestone debacle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
Tire placard just changed color in 2001 but I don't recall the numbers being new.


In 2017 RVIA increased the Reserve Load of tires vs GAWR from 0% margin to 10% margin
The tire payload sticker wasn't required until 2006, and is likely not even going to be found a vehicle before that.

The tire Payload sticker is a result of the the Ford/Firestone debacle.

In MY Opinion the payload sticker is only valid on the dealers lot, once off the dealers lot the available payload only get smaller

The other BIG thing many don't get when towing 5er's is the Payload doesn't equate to available pin weight! Our 2016 Ram 3500 DRW has a payload sticker of 5,411# with a GVWR of 14,000# so the truck weighed 8,589# with a full tank of fuel and 150# driver. Well with DW and me over 150#, our 36# Beagle and in bed tool box somewhat full and onboard air compressor we scale 10,000# leaving 4,000# for 5er pin weight. Our current 32' 5er has a pin of 2,800#.
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Old 06-16-2020, 02:28 AM   #75
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Russ, can we all assume that Belle, your 36# Beagle, eats well?
Now back to our regularly scheduled program....
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