Springdale 253fwre hitch weight

[kennyskywalker]

I called Keystone about the hitch weight listed in the brochure, I was told that the hitch weight is based on total trailer gvwr (all in) and thats 10300. At 15% that equals 1500lbs, it just seems extremely low for hitch weight fully loaded and there was no mention of shifting load to back of trailer although there is no storage in back its all up front. Any thoughts on this?

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[busterbrown]

Ideally, the weight on the receiver of the tow vehicle should be 10-15% of the trailer's weight when completely loaded. This includes propane, batteries, and hitch. Your trailer's total weight when loaded may be less than the GVWR as you may not be at the maximum limit. It's safe to say that 1500 LBS as tongue weight would be the maximum you should be at. So your numbers are correct. If you pack lighter, you'll be lighter on the TW. Good advice is to load heavy items spaced evenly over the axles, not necessarily in the rear or up front. This will essentially keep your gvw numbers more proportional with tongue weight, and give you a better towing experience.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

I called Keystone about the hitch weight listed in the brochure, I was told that the hitch weight is based on total trailer gvwr (all in) and thats 10300. At 15% that equals 1500lbs, it just seems extremely low for hitch weight fully loaded and there was no mention of shifting load to back of trailer although there is no storage in back its all up front. Any thoughts on this?

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I'm wondering what is going on with the listed tongue weight on your trailer? Looking at the website for Springdales the tongue weight for your model is much higher than the rest of the models; it is actually 15% of the GVW while the others look like the typical dry tongue weight of a trailer (much less than 15% of gvw). I'm wondering if it's a typo on their part, you have some sort of configuration that gives you a really high tongue weight or ?? Regardless, I think the 15% should be more than enough to calculate. Our trailer is 10k and we run a 12xx lb hitch weight and she pulls like a dream (if something doesn't fly off).

[JRTJH]

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.

[busterbrown]

My bad. Didn't look up the model nor realize it was a 5er. All this talk about 15% was a bit misleading. 20% I thought was ideal for the hitch pin.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.

No wonder the weight looked so out of whack!! I pulled up Springdale travel trailers and that is what nearly all of them are. After going back to look they put the 253fwre smack in the middle of the TT list. My bad. I wasn't expecting a 5vr there but should have looked.....and then it all makes sense Sorry for the confusion.

[JRTJH]

No reason to feel sorry about confusion... Heck, I'm pretty sure I've confused as many people as anyone on the forum, so you might as well "join the crowd"

My concern is the "understanding" that the OP got from Keystone when he talked to them. The way he explained the conversation sure does sound like they gave him some "bad advice"... Hopefully it didn't cause any significant problems.

[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The 253FWRE is a fifth wheel. As such, the pin weight should range between 15-25% of trailer weight. The specs on the trailer (west coast edition) indicate a shipping weight (empty trailer weight) of 8530 with a pin weight of 1500. That's a pin weight of about 17.5%, in the acceptable range for fifth wheels. With a GVW of 10,300, the pin weight should range between 1545 and 2575.

With the limited storage behind the axles, it will be difficult to keep the pin weight on the "lower end" of the acceptable range. I'd suspect that you're going to be approaching 2000 pounds pin weight on most trips, assuming you load like most fifth wheel owners, which means, "take what you want and fill the water tank at least half full".....

Based on what you were told at Keystone, I'd guess that either the person you spoke with didn't understand your question (and gave you incorrect information) or you didn't understand what they were saying. The specifications listed in the brochure and on the website are for the EMPTY trailer, no propane, no battery, as shipped from the factory. When you pick it up from the dealer with full propane tanks, one battery and a full water tank (52 gal @ 8.3/gal) you will have added 60 + 50 + 431 = 541 pounds to the empty weight of 8530 for a towing weight of 9071. That will give you a pin weight ranging between 1360 - 2267 for your first tow home.

I called Keystone again and spoke with an engineer, the brochure does list dry weight before filled propane but the pin weight is based on gvwr 10300. The dual axels carry the brunt of the weight. In fact they stated that adding cargo and water does not effect pin weight pound for pound, the design of the unit puts the weight squarely on the axels, this is why even weight distribution and cargo limit is critical. When I explain your theory they absolutely disagreed, (If and this is a big if) I were to have a pin weight of 2000lbs i would have to far exceed my 5vers gvwr, freash water tank full will effect cargo carry capacity but as long as I do not exceed 10300lbs with even weight distrubution my pin weight is 1545 (with full propane tanks).

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[kennyskywalker]

Btw cargo capacity for my unit is 1720, with freshwater tank full carry capacity drops dramatically heres my doot sticker

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[Javi]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

I called Keystone again and spoke with an engineer, the brochure does list dry weight before filled propane but the pin weight is based on gvwr 10300. The dual axels carry the brunt of the weight. In fact they stated that adding cargo and water does not effect pin weight pound for pound, the design of the unit puts the weight squarely on the axels, this is why even weight distribution and cargo limit is critical. When I explain your theory they absolutely disagreed, (If and this is a big if) I were to have a pin weight of 2000lbs i would have to far exceed my 5vers gvwr, freash water tank full will effect cargo carry capacity but as long as I do not exceed 10300lbs with even weight distrubution my pin weight is 1545 (with full propane tanks).

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They're jerking your chain...

[canesfan]

x2 I agree with Javi.

[JRTJH]

Well, I would say that you're faced with a dilemma about how much your pin weight is and how it will change with loading your trailer. Basic physics mandates that you can't add weight between the fulcrum and the end of a load and not increase the weight applied to the end, so loading cargo forward of the axles (in the bedroom closets, under the bed and in the storage passthrough) will add pin weight to the trailer. But if Keystone says it doesn't, maybe they figured out how to "bend the rules of physics" ???

Believe who you want (after all, this in the internet), but I would strongly urge you to get in your truck, hitch the trailer and head to a CAT scale to verify the information you received. Keep in mind that even dealerships have problems talking to engineers at the factory. Keystone's "engineers" don't spend time on the phone talking with people who call Customer Service.

[sourdough]

I would question the "expertise" of the person you talked to.

In every situation I've looked at the advertised hitch weight in the specs is the dry weight. In the specs of my trailer when purchased they matched what the website said and were dry weights; I can't imagine that they put a fully loaded pin weight on the 253fwre out of the blue. Plus, look at the listed specs; a 1500 lb pin on a gvw of 10,300 is 14.5%; that's not going to be the loaded pin weight.

The expert said that the load would not transfer to the pin lb for lb. and he's right depending on placement. But, look at your floorplan. The closets, wardrobe and underbed storage are right at the front. For us when packing for a trip we will have at least 100 lbs. of clothes/misc in the closets and another 100lbs under the bed. Those are right at the nose. That along with your propane and battery (s) will almost transfer lb. for lb. to the pin. Now look at your bathroom and galley. They may have ran your gray drain lines toward the back of the trailer but I doubt it. Your black tank is going to be under your toilet - forward of the axles it appears. All this transfers to the pin in some ratio or another depending on proximity to the front.

A long explanation to just say John is right, your "expert" at Keystone is not. I have talked to more than my share of folks at Keystone and some (ONE) was sharper than a tack (engineer on frames/axles/wheels) the rest seemed more like "book learned" than real life. JMO -

[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Well, I would say that you're faced with a dilemma about how much your pin weight is and how it will change with loading your trailer. Basic physics mandates that you can't add weight between the fulcrum and the end of a load and not increase the weight applied to the end, so loading cargo forward of the axles (in the bedroom closets, under the bed and in the storage passthrough) will add pin weight to the trailer. But if Keystone says it doesn't, maybe they figured out how to "bend the rules of physics" ???

Believe who you want (after all, this in the internet), but I would strongly urge you to get in your truck, hitch the trailer and head to a CAT scale to verify the information you received. Keep in mind that even dealerships have problems talking to engineers at the factory. Keystone's "engineers" don't spend time on the phone talking with people who call Customer Service.

So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I would question the "expertise" of the person you talked to.

In every situation I've looked at the advertised hitch weight in the specs is the dry weight. In the specs of my trailer when purchased they matched what the website said and were dry weights; I can't imagine that they put a fully loaded pin weight on the 253fwre out of the blue. Plus, look at the listed specs; a 1500 lb pin on a gvw of 10,300 is 14.5%; that's not going to be the loaded pin weight.

The expert said that the load would not transfer to the pin lb for lb. and he's right depending on placement. But, look at your floorplan. The closets, wardrobe and underbed storage are right at the front. For us when packing for a trip we will have at least 100 lbs. of clothes/misc in the closets and another 100lbs under the bed. Those are right at the nose. That along with your propane and battery (s) will almost transfer lb. for lb. to the pin. Now look at your bathroom and galley. They may have ran your gray drain lines toward the back of the trailer but I doubt it. Your black tank is going to be under your toilet - forward of the axles it appears. All this transfers to the pin in some ratio or another depending on proximity to the front.

A long explanation to just say John is right, your "expert" at Keystone is not. I have talked to more than my share of folks at Keystone and some (ONE) was sharper than a tack (engineer on frames/axles/wheels) the rest seemed more like "book learned" than real life. JMO -

Most of the weight inside is at and behind axel..

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[Javi]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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No, but the closer to the pin (and further from the axles) you add the weight the larger the increase pound from pound.. As an engineer I can assure you that your chain has been jerked... maybe because of their lack of knowledge and maybe they're just messing with you....

Think back to a seesaw or titter totter, the wheels are the pivot point...

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

So then you believe adding cargo increases pin weight pound for pound?

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No, that is NOT what I said and NOT what I inferred. I stated that your trailer, like EVERY fifth wheel I've ever seen (and all the others on this forum that have related their trailer weights) range between 15-25% of the trailer weight. So your trailer, at GVW weight of 10300 pounds will have a pin weight of 15-25%. Using simple math, that equates to a pin ranging between 1545 and 2575 pounds. YOUR trailer's pin weight will range somewhere in that range... Go back and reread what I said and you'll find that I NEVER said nor inferred that cargo you add to your trailer will put weight on your pin at a 1:1 ratio... Again, for your own "peace of mind" hitch your trailer and head to a CAT scale and weigh the rig. Then you'll know just how much you can "trust" that "Keystone engineer"..... I've lost even more faith in their "customer service" after what you relayed they told you

[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

No, that is NOT what I said and NOT what I inferred. I stated that your trailer, like EVERY fifth wheel I've ever seen (and all the others on this forum that have related their trailer weights) range between 15-25% of the trailer weight. So your trailer, at GVW weight of 10300 pounds will have a pin weight of 15-25%. Using simple math, that equates to a pin ranging between 1545 and 2575 pounds. YOUR trailer's pin weight will range somewhere in that range... Go back and reread what I said and you'll find that I NEVER said nor inferred that cargo you add to your trailer will put weight on your pin at a 1:1 ratio... Again, for your own "peace of mind" hitch your trailer and head to a CAT scale and weigh the rig. Then you'll know just how much you can "trust" that "Keystone engineer"..... I've lost even more faith in their "customer service" after what you relayed they told you

I think we are saying the same thing, 10300 x15% is 1500

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[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

I think we are saying the same thing, 10300 x15% is 1500

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1545 i mean

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[canesfan]

I think the ONLY time I've ever seen a fiver with a pin weight at or near the extreme low end (15%) was when I had one that had the fresh tank all the way at the back and I filled it up to go dry camping with somewhere around 800lbs of water. Going down the highway it did an "oh s**t" wiggle seat of your pants feeling a couple times. Not a pleasant experience. I finally figured I didn't have enough pin weight because of all the water. I had never had a fiver feel like that before and never wish to again. However I would like to put about 1000lbs in the back of the toyhauler now and then.