Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Lite Weight Trailers
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-17-2020, 02:43 AM   #21
purebred
Senior Member
 
purebred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Harlingen TX
Posts: 147
Thank you for the information. Like I said I don't stop and do an inspection of each and every rv dealer. A normal person's view of rv lots appears like plenty of rvs to choose from. From what I hear I guess that's the overwhelming excuse for quality of the rvs being built now. Shame.
__________________

__________________
2020 Alpine 3401RS, 2019 Ram 2500, 6.4 Hemi, 410, Anderson Ultimate.
purebred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 05:44 AM   #22
bsmith0404
Senior Member
 
bsmith0404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 3,015
I wouldn’t say it’s an excuse, but there is a serious labor shortage in northern IN. Manufacturers are doing everything they can to try to meet the demand. They are faced with labor shortages, parts supply shortages, and transport shortages. Every dealer has orders in for dealer stock and are screaming for RVs. An example of adjustments manufacturers are making, we cannot order travel trailers with 2 ACs, we can’t order big 5th wheels and toy haulers with 3. They will come prepped and additional ACs can be installed once available. My understanding is that Lippert, who supplies the frames and many of the appliances and other parts has been begging the manufacturers to shut down for a couple weeks. Of course, that won’t happen when every dealer is begging for RVs and consumers are placing orders just about as fast as we can sell them. We are seeing different parts from different manufacturers than usual. When manufacturers change parts suppliers, there’s bound to be some growing pains. If I had to make a guess, the average days on lot for most of our units right now is probably in the 10-15 day range where the average before was probably in the 90-100 day range. Additionally, there is a shortage of chassis for motorhomes. Ford and GM were shut down to build respirators and now the car dealers are screaming for cars and trucks. We haven’t seen a new class C for months and have been completely sold out since June and only have a couple class As left.
__________________

__________________

Brent
2013 Alpine 3500RE
2019 Silverado 2500HD Duramax
U.S. Air Force Retired (25 yrs)
RV Sales Consultant
bsmith0404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 06:45 AM   #23
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 10,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith0404 View Post
I wouldnít say itís an excuse, but there is a serious labor shortage in northern IN. Manufacturers are doing everything they can to try to meet the demand. They are faced with labor shortages, parts supply shortages, and transport shortages. Every dealer has orders in for dealer stock and are screaming for RVs. An example of adjustments manufacturers are making, we cannot order travel trailers with 2 ACs, we canít order big 5th wheels and toy haulers with 3. They will come prepped and additional ACs can be installed once available. My understanding is that Lippert, who supplies the frames and many of the appliances and other parts has been begging the manufacturers to shut down for a couple weeks. Of course, that wonít happen when every dealer is begging for RVs and consumers are placing orders just about as fast as we can sell them. We are seeing different parts from different manufacturers than usual. When manufacturers change parts suppliers, thereís bound to be some growing pains. If I had to make a guess, the average days on lot for most of our units right now is probably in the 10-15 day range where the average before was probably in the 90-100 day range. Additionally, there is a shortage of chassis for motorhomes. Ford and GM were shut down to build respirators and now the car dealers are screaming for cars and trucks. We havenít seen a new class C for months and have been completely sold out since June and only have a couple class As left.


The highlighted above was a shock to me. I knew the trailers were almost extinct for the time being but I never knew that had transitioned to the motorhomes until I talked to my salesman the other day when I was in the shop. He said the trailer inventory was so low that the motorhomes were the fastest selling thing they had on the lot and they were about depleted. I would not have thought that but guess the times are more straining than i thought. As far as parts shortages, availability etc. you are spot on. My trailer has been in the shop for 2 months and 1 week for some extensive repairs, one of which was the KeyTV modules/diplexers that are faulty. I am picking it up today (woo hoo) but without KeyTV being repaired. It has been on order for a month and yesterday they said they had no idea on when any of them would be available. It's pretty crazy out there right now. Told them to put the faulty stuff back in and I would put in the new when it came in....but I'm coming to get the trailer!
__________________
Danny & Susan wife of 53 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 06:54 AM   #24
chuckster57
Site Team
 
chuckster57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 12,198
Out here all the small units are flying off the lot, and the big iron is sitting.
__________________

2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
chuckster57 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 07:15 AM   #25
flybouy
Site Team
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 5,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by purebred View Post
Thank you for the information. Like I said I don't stop and do an inspection of each and every rv dealer. A normal person's view of rv lots appears like plenty of rvs to choose from. From what I hear I guess that's the overwhelming excuse for quality of the rvs being built now. Shame.
I can't speak for the manufacturers backlogs or the RV inventory of TX dealers. I can offer this, I pass 2 RV dealerships a couple of times a week near me. Their lots have fewer units than during the two RV shows a year. As they are two major dealers in the area that's a lot of missing units.

I can also attest to many reports in both news and trade journals of the record breaking RV sales numbers. I think any "normal person" would realize that there's a correlation between low inventory and high demand that would impact delivery demands. Typically the first thing that suffers in that scenario is quality. In an industry fraught with QC issues this can only end up as challenging an already problematic quality issue.

An excuse for poor quality? No, that lies squarely on the shoulders of the consumer. There are brands that offer higher quality units. They don't offer the plethora of model and floor plan choices as they don't have the sales number to support it. Most "normal people" understand that when they buy a base Toyota sedan that they're not getting BMW quality. I guess the lack of knowledge, or the Nomadic Dream of "hitting the open road", or maybe it's the consumer being "blinded by the bling" that's responsible for the lack of consumer awareness.

I apologize for the lengthy post but I think the increase in quality issues is not an excuse but a rational cause and effect. The reason for the historical lack of quality goes back to the single factor that it has not negatively affected sales.
__________________
Marshall
2012 Laredo 303 TG
2010 F250 LT Super Cab, long bed, 4X4, 6.4 Turbo Diesel
flybouy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 07:16 AM   #26
Javi
Senior Member
 
Javi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 3,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith0404 View Post
I wouldnít say itís an excuse, but there is a serious labor shortage in northern IN. Manufacturers are doing everything they can to try to meet the demand. They are faced with labor shortages, parts supply shortages, and transport shortages. Every dealer has orders in for dealer stock and are screaming for RVs. An example of adjustments manufacturers are making, we cannot order travel trailers with 2 ACs, we canít order big 5th wheels and toy haulers with 3. They will come prepped and additional ACs can be installed once available. My understanding is that Lippert, who supplies the frames and many of the appliances and other parts has been begging the manufacturers to shut down for a couple weeks. Of course, that wonít happen when every dealer is begging for RVs and consumers are placing orders just about as fast as we can sell them. We are seeing different parts from different manufacturers than usual. When manufacturers change parts suppliers, thereís bound to be some growing pains. If I had to make a guess, the average days on lot for most of our units right now is probably in the 10-15 day range where the average before was probably in the 90-100 day range. Additionally, there is a shortage of chassis for motorhomes. Ford and GM were shut down to build respirators and now the car dealers are screaming for cars and trucks. We havenít seen a new class C for months and have been completely sold out since June and only have a couple class As left.
Looking at this my RV Tech was pretty smart back in April when he ordered 50 Coleman 15k units .

But in truth this is affecting more than just the RV industry, we're playing hell getting stainless, aluminum and steel not to mention repair parts for equipment. We've gone from 4 to 6 week turn on orders to 8 to 10 and rising; not because of labor but because of material.
Javi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 07:47 AM   #27
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 19,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Looking at this my RV Tech was pretty smart back in April when he ordered 50 Coleman 15k units .

But in truth this is affecting more than just the RV industry, we're playing hell getting stainless, aluminum and steel not to mention repair parts for equipment. We've gone from 4 to 6 week turn on orders to 8 to 10 and rising; not because of labor but because of material.
A lot of those materials either come from or compete with similar materials from China. As the "cheap, inferior steel from China becomes harder to obtain, manufacturers start ordering the more expensive (and better grade) steel or stainless or aluminum from US/Canadian sources. That puts an "availability shortage" from the US manufacturer.

The same thing is happening with everything from air conditioners for home use to zerk fittings for automotive use... That's an "A to Z shortage in almost every production line"..... It's going to get worse before it gets better....

Your RV tech ordering those 50 A/C units to get ahead of the curve is somewhat similar to why we had a toilet paper shortage at the start of the "Covid Crap"....

As for quality vs quantity. Go to any Applebee's or Big Boy after the local high school football game on Friday night and see if you get the same "individual service and whether the salad bar is as well stocked as it is when you go for an "early supper" at 330 in the afternoon, just as the supper setup is just being put on the salad bar... In almost every product line I can think of, quality goes down as demand for quantity goes up.... Couple that with a historical acceptance of low quality in the RV business and it's easy to see why quality has always been low and is going down, not up, as the demand for anything they can push out the door is increasing on a daily basis.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 09:56 AM   #28
purebred
Senior Member
 
purebred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Harlingen TX
Posts: 147
After what has been said I believe we are in a shortage now, thanks for the eye opening. Like I stated after buying our Alpine which at the time seemed pretty expensive to me I learned to fix stuff myself and stay away from rv dealers completely. With living in ours full time and not putting a lot of miles on it I noticed more and more things which I blame on how it was built. Quality. This is our first brand new rv. Our first was an old Holiday rambler i pulled all over the country which had real wood and was very heavy and also very well put together. We bought this Alpine for full time living and not just going on camping excursions or vacations like most. After plucking down almost 70 grand which seems quite a bit to me, both me and my wife started noticing things that not only QC should have caught but anyone with a conscious should have done correctly and not just do it because they were expected to or behind schedule. I'm glad we bought before the pandemic because now there is really going to be problems and I have most of ours worked out . Who i feel sorry for is the younger generation that spends a fortune on these rvs and have to depend on the rv companies to fix the problems. There rvs will be in the shop more than vacation or camping.
__________________
2020 Alpine 3401RS, 2019 Ram 2500, 6.4 Hemi, 410, Anderson Ultimate.
purebred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 10:02 AM   #29
wiredgeorge
Senior Member
 
wiredgeorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Mico, TX
Posts: 2,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Looking at this my RV Tech was pretty smart back in April when he ordered 50 Coleman 15k units .

But in truth this is affecting more than just the RV industry, we're playing hell getting stainless, aluminum and steel not to mention repair parts for equipment. We've gone from 4 to 6 week turn on orders to 8 to 10 and rising; not because of labor but because of material.

I use specific screws, bolts and other metric hardware in my business (Japanese motorcycle carburetor rebuilding/sales) and use Japanese Industrial Standard B1188 SEMS screws mainly. Since the stuff came from the land of the virus, retailers selling this hardware are hard pressed to keep it in stock and lead times and prices are getting stupid.
__________________
wiredgeorge Mico TX
2006 F350 CC 4WD 6.0L
2002 Keystone Cougar 278
2006 GL1800 Roadsmith Trike
wiredgeorge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 10:44 AM   #30
bsmith0404
Senior Member
 
bsmith0404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 3,015
Prices getting stupid is an understatement. Go to your local Home Depot or Lowes and buy an 8’ 2x4. Used to be around $2-2.50, now they’re $7. What kind of an impact do you think that is having on the manufacturers? Yet we’ve seen very minimal price increases from them. The RV manufacturers for the most part are eating that cost. I guess cudo’s are due to them for that.
__________________

Brent
2013 Alpine 3500RE
2019 Silverado 2500HD Duramax
U.S. Air Force Retired (25 yrs)
RV Sales Consultant
bsmith0404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 10:59 AM   #31
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 19,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith0404 View Post
Prices getting stupid is an understatement. Go to your local Home Depot or Lowes and buy an 8í 2x4. Used to be around $2-2.50, now theyíre $7. What kind of an impact do you think that is having on the manufacturers? Yet weíve seen very minimal price increases from them. The RV manufacturers for the most part are eating that cost. I guess cudoís are due to them for that.
That brings to light a very important consideration in any manufacturing process, whether it's RV's or washing machines or screws for carburetors.

As the price of materials goes up, the manufacturer has to make a conscious decision where to cut costs or whether to pass the increased cost to build the product on, to the customer. As an example, if Keystone's price last year for the materials/components to build a $30K trailer was 12K, and this year, the price increases to 15K, that's a 3K difference in materials costs. Does Keystone increase the MSRP by 3K or do they try to build more (even if they have problems buying the materials to increase production) or do they reduce the labor component by cutting hours, cutting production lines and increasing output (a direct correlation to quality) or do they go out of business/stop production until the materials availability improves ???

My guess is that every manufacturer in the US is facing the same questions. As we increased our reliance on China, the tradeoff of cheaper offshore production shifted the labor/materials equation. Now that manufacturers are having to pay more for the components that go into a trailer, they have to cut costs in other areas of production or cut profits. If they cut profits, investors will pull their money and invest in other companies where they can make a better profit, so, Keystone, Ford, GM, Tappan, Lippert, (put any manufacturer of US goods here) are all facing the "increased costs vs decreased labor costs" in order to stay in business. Competition is all facing the same situation, so it doesn't do any good to shop Forest River or Grand Designs... They are also paying hundreds/thousands more for the parts to build any trailer they run down the assembly line......

It's going to get "leaner and meaner" before it gets "better"....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 11:08 AM   #32
Javi
Senior Member
 
Javi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 3,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
That brings to light a very important consideration in any manufacturing process, whether it's RV's or washing machines or screws for carburetors.

As the price of materials goes up, the manufacturer has to make a conscious decision where to cut costs or whether to pass the increased cost to build the product on, to the customer. As an example, if Keystone's price last year for the materials/components to build a $30K trailer was 12K, and this year, the price increases to 15K, that's a 3K difference in materials costs. Does Keystone increase the MSRP by 3K or do they try to build more (even if they have problems buying the materials to increase production) or do they reduce the labor component by cutting hours, cutting production lines and increasing output (a direct correlation to quality) or do they go out of business/stop production until the materials availability improves ???

My guess is that every manufacturer in the US is facing the same questions. As we increased our reliance on China, the tradeoff of cheaper offshore production shifted the labor/materials equation. Now that manufacturers are having to pay more for the components that go into a trailer, they have to cut costs in other areas of production or cut profits. If they cut profits, investors will pull their money and invest in other companies where they can make a better profit, so, Keystone, Ford, GM, Tappan, Lippert, (put any manufacturer of US goods here) are all facing the "increased costs vs decreased labor costs" in order to stay in business. Competition is all facing the same situation, so it doesn't do any good to shop Forest River or Grand Designs... They are also paying hundreds/thousands more for the parts to build any trailer they run down the assembly line......

It's going to get "leaner and meaner" before it gets "better"....
Believe it or not, the price of stainless, aluminum and steel are still relatively stable and only slightly higher than pre-covid.

The mills are having trouble with production between social distancing and illness.

We buy in truck loads and it just takes longer for them to produce it.
__________________

Javi is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RVģ is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×