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Old 08-06-2020, 05:18 PM   #1
markcee
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Forewarned is Forearmed

So.....hopefully my wife won't see this post but I'm already looking ahead a couple or three years with an eye on a modest/mid-size 5th wheel.

I was ignorant and listened to salesmen when purchasing the former truck and trailer in my signature. Although the TV worked decently, it was traded in on the current signature truck, a 2019 F350 gasser, 2WD, 4.30 gears, SB. This TV already has factory 5th wheel prep, but has the GVWR 10K de-rate. With the de-rate, the payload is 3200 lbs and change. If push comes to shove, I will do the actual math, but what do you guys/gals feel is a SAFE/LEGAL and comfortable 5th wheel GVWR I can pull with this TV? We live in AZ and will do a lot of W/SW travel but will likely go cross country at least once per year.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 08-06-2020, 05:49 PM   #2
JRTJH
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You should be OK with any of the Cougar Half Ton or Laredo Super Lite fifth wheel models and with some of the Cougar, Laredo or Sprinter "mid height" models. You might even get into a few of the smaller "full height" models...

There are some really nice (but limited space) fifth wheels that would fit your 3200 pound payload and there are a couple of larger fifth wheels that would work...

You'll need to do some pretty extensive "calculating" before buying. Crunching the numbers is something that even a "dually owner" should do before spending the money with "hopes that it'll work"....

There are a number of fifth wheels from all the manufacturers that you can choose from...
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:04 PM   #3
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I know you've worked on this, and I suppose I am considered one of the weight police, but exactly how does that 3500 come up with a 3200 payload (that was rhetorical)? My 3/4 had 3190 if I recall. This 3500 with a drivetrain similar to yours has a payload of 3986 but a gvw of 11500 if I recall.

Since your truck is rated very similar to my last 3/4 I will say that I was happy with a 10k gvw trailer (bumper pull loaded to 92-9300). I could have gone up some. I tried to keep a safety cushion - but it was a bumper pull. A bumper goes from maybe 12-13% tongue weight to 20%+ pin weight (5th) of the gvw which is a considerable difference.

I thought about a 5th on the 3/4 once or twice but figured going from a gvw of 10k to 12k (2400 pin) would start putting me in that "butt clench" mode. So my thoughts (additional );

you are familiar with your load and what you've been camping with. Have you scaled them? Do you know the weight of the things you carry to "make you happy" on a trip? If you actually know that it's different to me than a person just starting off and never tried loading a trailer and camping. IF you know that number you can add that to the supposed gvw of the prospective trailer to get some idea of what your actual weight might be. Be aware IMO you have to leave a safety cushion between the posted max weights and actuals - no matter whether they are tax driven, politically driven or ? They are what they are.

Realize as well that the fiver will offer more storage space hence more weight if you choose to load things into it. Where you put things (inside trailer front/back, truck vs trailer etc.) has an effect on the load on the truck. Payload will by your kicker. In this case you might want to figure that you will get by with the items you have taken all along, resist the temptation to add stuff to fill up the extra storage space and just enjoy the added room the 5th wheel will afford you.
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Old 08-06-2020, 07:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I know you've worked on this, and I suppose I am considered one of the weight police, but exactly how does that 3500 come up with a 3200 payload (that was rhetorical)? My 3/4 had 3190 if I recall. This 3500 with a drivetrain similar to yours has a payload of 3986 but a gvw of 11500 if I recall.

Since your truck is rated very similar to my last 3/4 I will say that I was happy with a 10k gvw trailer (bumper pull loaded to 92-9300). I could have gone up some. I tried to keep a safety cushion - but it was a bumper pull. A bumper goes from maybe 12-13% tongue weight to 20%+ pin weight (5th) of the gvw which is a considerable difference.

I thought about a 5th on the 3/4 once or twice but figured going from a gvw of 10k to 12k (2400 pin) would start putting me in that "butt clench" mode. So my thoughts (additional );

you are familiar with your load and what you've been camping with. Have you scaled them? Do you know the weight of the things you carry to "make you happy" on a trip? If you actually know that it's different to me than a person just starting off and never tried loading a trailer and camping. IF you know that number you can add that to the supposed gvw of the prospective trailer to get some idea of what your actual weight might be. Be aware IMO you have to leave a safety cushion between the posted max weights and actuals - no matter whether they are tax driven, politically driven or ? They are what they are.

Realize as well that the fiver will offer more storage space hence more weight if you choose to load things into it. Where you put things (inside trailer front/back, truck vs trailer etc.) has an effect on the load on the truck. Payload will by your kicker. In this case you might want to figure that you will get by with the items you have taken all along, resist the temptation to add stuff to fill up the extra storage space and just enjoy the added room the 5th wheel will afford you.
Yes sir...that paper de-rate is a killer. Lost 1400 lbs of payload with the stroke of a key or two. But hell, my license plate is $40 cheaper next year!! I definitely need to do a re-scale. We have it parked at a summer weekend spot until the end of September and I plan on stopping at the scales on the way home. Like many of us, the trailer has also probably put on the 'Covid 15' but I would be surprised if it is over 8500 lbs.

The suggested 5th wheels in the Keystone family (Laredo and 1/2 ton) really don't offer anything I didn't already have so no real upgrade there (I don't think), Considering the pin weight vs. tongue weight %, I may be better off looking at a larger TT going forward.

This opens up another question. Being pretty much a rank novice, my assumption is that the logical upgrade from a fairly big TT is a 5'ver. Is this true, or is it my inexperience speaking? Perhaps the wife and I have come to the erroneous assumption that 5'vers are much more 'luxurious' and spacious in comparison to the run of the mill travel trailer....must be that step up bedroom!

So, should my thinking be in error, here's the question: if you were considering a 35'-37' OAL trailer, what reason(s), if any, would you have for choosing a 5'ver over a TT?
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Old 08-06-2020, 08:20 PM   #5
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The reasons are really subjective. Our last bumper pull was about 38' OAL but that includes the tongue, so maybe subtract 3-4'. For us that trailer was absolutely fine but the "finer" points of RV travel interject. That trailer would have been the cat's meow IF we didn't travel and stay for months and IF DW didn't decide we had to have a washer/dryer due to that. The other thing is the length of time spent in the RV. The bumper pull at that length I loved...until about the 3rd month then we both began feeling confined and like we were staying in a "tunnel". Those things pushed to a 5th wheel. The things we like about the 5th is the washer/dryer and the enlarged living area (due to the high ceiling) and the lighter interior which we didn't have on the previous trailer.

It really boils down to how you travel and what you perceive as important. Long trips for us got tedious with the low ceiling and dark wood tones - which I like and chose. Now it's much lighter and airier. A 5th wheel, depending on layout, can be much more spacious; "luxury" ain't there unless you buy one of the top line units which your truck will not carry. This 5th is much less "luxurious" (build components) than our previous bumper pull....but it accommodates a washer/dryer and provides that feeling of space....at the cost of height and weight....and truck size.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markcee View Post
Yes sir...that paper de-rate is a killer. Lost 1400 lbs of payload with the stroke of a key or two. But hell, my license plate is $40 cheaper next year!! I definitely need to do a re-scale. We have it parked at a summer weekend spot until the end of September and I plan on stopping at the scales on the way home. Like many of us, the trailer has also probably put on the 'Covid 15' but I would be surprised if it is over 8500 lbs.

The suggested 5th wheels in the Keystone family (Laredo and 1/2 ton) really don't offer anything I didn't already have so no real upgrade there (I don't think), Considering the pin weight vs. tongue weight %, I may be better off looking at a larger TT going forward.

This opens up another question. Being pretty much a rank novice, my assumption is that the logical upgrade from a fairly big TT is a 5'ver. Is this true, or is it my inexperience speaking? Perhaps the wife and I have come to the erroneous assumption that 5'vers are much more 'luxurious' and spacious in comparison to the run of the mill travel trailer....must be that step up bedroom!

So, should my thinking be in error, here's the question: if you were considering a 35'-37' OAL trailer, what reason(s), if any, would you have for choosing a 5'ver over a TT?
Boy $40 a year to loose 1,400# in payload, to me is NOT good economics!
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:38 AM   #7
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Boy $40 a year to loose 1,400# in payload, to me is NOT good economics!
Got to agree, maybe the $40/yr savings is making lemonade out of his lemons? Can't see where a $40/yr savings would be a deciding factor when spending over $100K for truck & trailer to say nothing of fuel and camping costs.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:57 AM   #8
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Got to agree, maybe the $40/yr savings is making lemonade out of his lemons? Can't see where a $40/yr savings would be a deciding factor when spending over $100K for truck & trailer to say nothing of fuel and camping costs.
It obviously wasn't a deciding factor. I was just being sarcastic, guys.

I didn't order this truck but found it on the lot. It more than met/meets my needs for now and the foreseeable future and I realized it had a paper de-rate when I purchased. I was more just musing about what type of 5'ver I could pull with it than anything else.
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:03 AM   #9
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It obviously wasn't a deciding factor. I was just being sarcastic, guys.

I didn't order this truck but found it on the lot. It more than met/meets my needs for now and the foreseeable future and I realized it had a paper de-rate when I purchased. I was more just musing about what type of 5'ver I could pull with it than anything else.
That was my point, you were making the best of the situation. .
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Old 08-09-2020, 06:17 AM   #10
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Danny's post #5 seems right to me. Having owned both TT's and 5th wheels, the fiver just seems to "live bigger", probably because of more slide outs - seems less cramped somehow. In addition, I love the stability of the 5th wheel when towing plus not having to use a WD/sway control hitch.

Unfortunately, the limited payload on your TV is going to be a big limiter with your 5th wheel shopping. A big 5er toy hauler or something with multiple slide outs is probably out due to pin weight. As stated by others, that de-rated truck doesn't sound like much of a bargain...

In a couple of posts, you've mentioned this is a "paper" de-rate. Unfortunately, this factory rating is what will be used in any comprehensive law enforcement inspection or accident investigation. So you are pretty much stuck with the de-rate if you want to stay legal.

Good to ask questions now and plan ahead - you're doing it right! Good luck with your search.
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