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Old 03-20-2012, 11:44 AM   #1
geo
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Arctic/Polar/Glacier Tank Enclosure Observations, Part 2b

As said, the Fresh Water tank had its bottom nestled in the R-7 insulation. (Fresh_Water_Tank,jpg) There was no supplied furnace heat or vent in this area as it is on the opposite side of the Gray2 tank valve. The aft facing side of this tank is exposed to the uninsulated volume of the rear of the underbelly area. Note the squared portion of the tank to the right. That is where the drain valve is located. (Drain.jpg) Note a couple of things about the drain. For one, it is on the edge of the insulation and not within the insulation. But a surprise to me was that the drain is not the lowest point of the tank! Though I thought I had drained this tank, there was still about 3" of water contained within the tank! By shining the flashlight around the tank bottom, I could see light colored sediment within the tank. This even convinces me more that the fresh water system needs to be sterilized at least once or twice a year! The fill and vent connections to the Fresh Water tank along with the sensors and pump supply Pex can be seen in FW_side.jpg.

The ducting is a mess! In a previous post's picture (Forward_duct.jpg), one can see a huge horseshoe bend in a duct that is being crimped by the shore power cable. This same duct continues down the port side to another huge horseshoe bend to feed the kitchen heat vent. (Rear_duct.jpg) I removed some 8' from this duct to eliminate these bends and located the splice beneath the Gray2 tank. The ducts for the rear living area heat vents were entwined along with the valve heat duct. I removed the valve heat duct and un-entwined the rear ducts so they lay parallel on the bubble wrap. I then re-attached the valve duct to provide warmed air to the valve.

I did remove about 4 bolts holding the coroplast near the port rear area of the Alpine beneath the adjacent slide area holding the entertainment center. I gently pulled this coroplast down to feed an electrical fishing tape through to pass around the fresh water tank. I am pulling some wires that will result in another modification post at a later date. I'm kicking myself for not taking a picture at that time for this post. But what I saw was "nothing". There is just a volume of empty, open space between the coroplast and aluminum-coated bubble wrap and the insulated floor of the Alpine. Yes, there is the duct work supplying furnace air to the living area vents. And yes there is the Lippert slide mechanisms for the two opposing slides. But other than those items, there is just an empty volume of air. I noticed one small pool of condensate water, but more troubling was the pool of ATF fluid pooled beneath the kitchen slide plunger. I have a hydraulic leak! I will tend to this later and also plan to attach a drip pan and put a small tube in to drain it off to one side . . . just in case of further leaks! But it is this large volume of "nothing" that is exposed to the aft side of the Fresh Water tank.

With this posting, I personally can understand why so many of our Alpine members had freeze-up problems during the winter of 2010-11. It also gives me a "justified feeling" of doing this work so my DW, pups, and I can camp in the future in colder climates or even in north Texas during the winter. That work, however, is not part of this posting and will appear later in the Modifications portion of the Forum.

If I can answer any questions, etc., please let me know. Two years ago when I purchased the Alpine, I had no idea that I would know the underbelly of this fiver so well. I do believe that my present and near-future modifications will result in better cold weather durability and even save on the a/c use.

Oh, I promised to say how to fix the coroplast after cutting. I guess this is really a "Modification", but why not? I have thanked him before on this Forum and will once again . . . Many Thanks to Flyguy! Through his postings of where to find parts, I found Surplus RV Parts on the Web. Surplus RV Parts sells "underbelly tape" by the foot. I would bet if you crawled around the bottom of the slides or beneath the RV for a short while, you would see that some of this tape has already been applied to your RV. I was surprised to see some on the "outside the I-beam" underneath while working this past weekend. The "underbelly tape" is used on RVs and Mobile Homes to seal cuts, seams, and openings on the underbelly material whether it be coroplast, etc. It is a rugged and very sticky tape that you need to be sure to properly position before applying! Armed with this tape and a box cutter, I have no fear of slicing open the beast, er ah, coroplast.

Ron
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:16 PM   #2
alaskalife
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Thanks for te input...I was under mine the other day in the fresh tank area and disappointed with the "Artic Pacakge." While I know it was not intended to handle Alaska weather, it was cheap work at best and a marketing gimick at worst.

Anyways, I am considering some upgrades such as heating pads and additional insulation to survive a winter up here. I know one who has done it in a coach, so I figured I can do it in this thing.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskalife View Post
Thanks for te input...I was under mine the other day in the fresh tank area and disappointed with the "Artic Pacakge." While I know it was not intended to handle Alaska weather, it was cheap work at best and a marketing gimick at worst.

Anyways, I am considering some upgrades such as heating pads and additional insulation to survive a winter up here. I know one who has done it in a coach, so I figured I can do it in this thing.
Alaskalife -

Thank you. I have to agree with your comment about a "marketing gimmick".

I have finished putting tank heaters on my Alpine. If you look in the Modifications subject area, you will find two of my posts concerning installing the tank heaters on the forward tanks and the control panel. This past weekend I completed installing tank heaters on the rear tanks and insulating the area around them. I can't help but notice that no one seems to think the I-beams will get cold! As in "cold steel"! I will try to complete this modification post (or possibly two part post) today.

Additionally, Alaskalife, several of our members have expressed an interest in visiting Alaska via the Alaska Highway. If you have any insight you could give about that travel or any insight on visiting Alaska, I know they would appreciate it. I believe it was in the "Freeways" portion of the Forum.

Ron
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:05 AM   #4
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I just read one of the oter threads...I was considering the Ultra Tank Heaters too, but they seem so expensive compared to oil pan and transmission pan heaters used on vehicles here in AK. I could use some of the 100 or 200 W oil pan heaters and come out way cheaper and distribute heat better by using multiple pads on each tank.

In addition I was considering te blow in insulation like what is used in attics just because I reall hate dealing with fiberglass. I saw there was mixed opinions in te other thread about fiberglass too..

Thoughts?
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:06 AM   #5
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Alaskalife -

I am always in "thought" drives my DW crazy!

Alaska conditions are very, very different than what we find down here in the lower 48 and even southern Canada. One of my former employers was a major operator on the North Slope, and we heard tales all the time of people who came to Alaska totally unprepared!

That said, I would not advise ANYONE in the Lower 48 or even southern Canada to use high wattage oil pan heaters! In fact, I would really like to discourage anyone from even thinking along that line below the latitude of 55 degrees! The UltraHeat pads are designed to be applied to plastic tanks. Oil pan heaters are designed to be applied to metal tanks. Here in the more temperate climate of the Lower 48, the oil pan heater might cause some big problems with the concentrated heat. Now, true, the UltraHeat does output between 100 and 200 watts depending upon the "tank size" pad and voltage. But it seems to be more of a "smooth heat" like a heating blanket on a bed, rather than a concentrated heat like a heating pad on high with a voltage spike. Oil pan heaters that are equiped with thermostats also have a different temperature range than the UltraHeat tank heater. The UltraHeat thermostat is "on" at 44F (7C) and "off" at 64F (18C). I would dare say that the oil pan type of functionality might be what one would desire if located in Alaska, Canada's territories, and Siberia.

Now, Alaskalife, you have a whole different aspect on this matter! I would encourage you to find other Alaskan RVers who have a much better knowledge of this subject. Are the other Alaskan RVers using RV tank heaters or oil pan heaters? Are they modifying them for the RV or using them in the same way as an oil pan? Actually, I am interested to know "just for the record".

Now, I have a much better "feel" for the insulation subject. Yes, there are many opinions about "insulation". And, if your Big Sky is similar to my Alpine, you have a measley piece of R-7 unfaced fiberglass insulation that is probably more for vibration control than temperature insulation! Unfaced fiberglass does "breathe" and allow moisture passage as opposed to faced fiberglass that is typically used in construction to act not only as an insulator but also as a vapor seal. I toyed with the water-based spray foam, but decided it would be too much of a mess to apply and what if I needed to get in there or fix something? Keeps coming back to unfaced fiberglass. I noticed that the underbelly does have a certain amount of water collected, and it was obvious this water came from condensation - especially along the I-Beams and coroplast. Well, if the air volume is reduced by insulation, the condensation will in turn be reduced.

But blown insulation . . . careful there! Now, if the RV is to be PERMANENTLY emplaced, the slide system welded in place, and never moved ever again . . . sure, fill that puppy up with blown insulation! But if you plan to retract/extend the slides, blown insulation is a bad idea! That insulation, whether cellulose or rock wool, might get caught up in the rail teeth and cogs of the slide system and cause you all sorts of headache! As will be seen in my modification post, I used 4" plastic gutter to enclose the 3" Lippert slide system to protect it against the fiberglass! And it looks like it will work fine! Goggles, long sleeves, a pair of Brown Mule cotton gloves, and unfaced fiberglass . . . actually it looks like it will do quite well.

Hope these thoughts help!

Ron
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #6
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They do...thanks....yeah, regardless what heat pad I use...they will always be on here during the winter...lol I was actuallu considering sticking the pads to sheet metal and then use adhesive to attach the shhet metal to the tank to help with heat distribution. I am in the interior so I see negative 50. I have only met one person who has lived in their coach during the winter here but he has an actual motorhome not 5th wheel so his tanks are more insulated and heated than ours. The majority leave them in storage for the winter. I would also be skirting the RV with some insulation for the winter too.

I am in mine now (pos 10-30s here this time of year) and just started staying in it. My supply line from tank keeps freezing at night, but we are making do. But, I plan to rig this thing to stay in it through the winter.

When I originally came up here, I never planned on bringing it much less full timming it but now I want the challenge of doing it. :-)
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