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Old 03-22-2021, 04:00 PM   #41
chuckster57
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I had an email from Lippert back about 6 years ago saying the same thing this thread is about. Wish I would have saved it. It was sent to my service mgr, and I think I may have posted it back then. I may try to find it.
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Old 03-22-2021, 06:53 PM   #42
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I always wonder. They say Andersen Gooseneck adapter. They don’t say Andersen Ultimate a Fifth Wheel Connection. Are they thinking the Andersen Ranch hand adapter?
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Old 03-22-2021, 08:40 PM   #43
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Really, this looks like a BS excuse for Keystone/Lippert to refuse warranty work on a frame defect that has been around for a long time on some of the LCI frames. This has been documented, and even Keystone has a repair procedure that pretty much proves this. I've seen several postings over the years in different RV forums about structural cracks, especially near the front, of different RV's, not just Keystone, and many were not using Andersen hitches.

I've had my Andersen hitch since 2017 and way past the warranty. I also inspect the front corner of the RV on a regular basis especially near the bedroom slide out where the problem has been the most noted and have seen no sign whatsoever of any damage. When I did purchase the Andersen, I did read about the Rotoflex pin boxes and made sure I purchased the lockout kit that is available through Anderson. If someone has one of those pin boxes, and didn't purchase the lockout, I could see where it could cause more structural stress.

However, it seems to me that the main cause of the problem could be the structural defect, and that needs to be taken care of by LCI/Keystone and not put the blame back on Andersen.

Anyway, I have no plans of getting rid of my Andersen hitch as it does a great job of towing with no bucking and a smooth ride down the road.

That's just my 2 cents
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Old 03-23-2021, 03:55 AM   #44
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The way I read the memo is that the Anderson ultimate hitch is ok? I think they are talking about gooseneck adapters which the Anderson hitch is not.

There are various brands of goose neck adapters in the industry, none of which have ever been
“authorized” or “approved for use” by Keystone, except for the Reese Goose Box and the Anderson
Ultimate 5th Wheel Connection Goose Neck Adapter. Over the past couple of years we have noticed an
increase in the number of frame failures and sidewall damage on fifth wheels that use the Anderson
Goose Neck Adapter.
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Old 03-23-2021, 04:05 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by spicercars View Post
The way I read the memo is that the Anderson ultimate hitch is ok? I think they are talking about gooseneck adapters which the Anderson hitch is not.

There are various brands of goose neck adapters in the industry, none of which have ever been “authorized” or “approved for use” by Keystone, except for the Reese Goose Box and the Anderson Ultimate 5th Wheel Connection Goose Neck Adapter. Over the past couple of years we have noticed an increase in the number of frame failures and sidewall damage on fifth wheels that use the Anderson Goose Neck Adapter.
Lippert Components is the leading frame supplier in the RV Industry and has the expertise to evaluate the use of goose neck adapters and the effect of their use on a fifth wheel. We approached LCI and were informed that it has not, and it will not, honor or pay any warranty claims for damage to the front end frame/structure or any parts or components of any fifth wheel, when a fifth wheel is being used with any goose neck adapter, with the exception of the “Reese Goose Box” (having gone through extensive suitability testing by Reese and LCI). LCI informed us that this policy and warranty exclusion, except for the Reese Goose Box, applies to all brand fifth wheels currently being sold the in RV Industry today, not just Keystone.
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Old 03-23-2021, 05:46 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech740 View Post
I always wonder. They say Andersen Gooseneck adapter. They don’t say Andersen Ultimate a Fifth Wheel Connection. Are they thinking the Andersen Ranch hand adapter?
Have you read the last two paragraphs of the pdf attached to the first post in this thread? Keystone "specifically" is referring to the Anderson Ultimate 5th Wheel Connection Goose Neck Adapter and call it out "by that name" as being the specific hitch that will void the frame warranty on any claim submitted past March 15, 2021.
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Old 03-24-2021, 04:18 AM   #47
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No more Andersen for me, unfortunately

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluis View Post
Hey folks.

I know this to be extremely controversial, but I just wanted to share my experience.

I've purchased a Cougar 24RDS in January, to be picked up in end of March.
At the time, after exhausting research, I've decided to go with an Andersen Ultimate Hitch attached to a goose ball.

No brainer. I like how light it is, how fast I can install or remove from the bed and will have the bed free for when I'm at the campsite to go around.
Dealership was super on board, manager said himself was a huge fan of Andersen. This was all in January.

Now we are in March. Went to the dealership to sign the papers, manager said all dealerships received a memo from Keystone that claims Lippert will no longer accept warranty claims of chassis failure if the person is using an Andersen Hitch (or any other goose neck adapter OTHER THAN Reese Goose Box).

It says in the memo that the decision was taken because "over the past couple of years we have noticed an increase in the number of frame failures and sidewall damage on fifth wheels that use the Anderson Goose Neck Adapter".

I know it is very unlikely that an Andersen Ultimate Hitch will cause extra stress on the frame, and the Reese Goose Box will not. To me, looking at the physics of things, it seems that the Goose Box will actually exert more force to the front of the frame than the Andersen, but I'm no engineer.

I was even willing to just use the Andersen and risk it, but then I was thinking I don't want to get stuck between an eventual unnaproved warranty claim from Keystone and the fine print of the Andersen multimillion dollar warranty that is supposed to cover this claims.

I absolutely NEED the space and don't want a 300 pound hitch in my bed, I could use the payload for other things. Not to mention if the hitch is super heavy I'd never remove it, it would live there forever.

So to my eyes, I have 2 options:
- Reese Goose Box (although I'm actually afraid of the frame cracking now) due to it's design, and it's super expensive here in Canada.
- Demco Recon - no modifications required, 3 parts disassemble, each part 47 pounds, cheaper than Andersen.

Attached below is a copy of the memo, in case someone is curious.

So if you decide to go the Demco route as I did checkout https://sportcompactwarehouse.com/demco-8550043. Free shipping, no tax, and if you use the code in the photo you can get some $$ off. They ship fast, I ordered Monday and I’ll have it tomorrow. I plan to use it Saturday when we go to the Smokies.
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Old 03-24-2021, 05:17 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RamminTime View Post
So if you decide to go the Demco route as I did checkout https://sportcompactwarehouse.com/demco-8550043. Free shipping, no tax, and if you use the code in the photo you can get some $$ off. They ship fast, I ordered Monday and I’ll have it tomorrow. I plan to use it Saturday when we go to the Smokies.
Attachment 32622
Very good deal, indeed. I'm getting the gooseneck version (8550045 - they are sold out), the one you linked to is the rail system. Camping World and eTrailer still have them and it is discounted as well.

Here in Canada they flew off the shelves. It's really hard to get one in stock today. Prices obviously went super high as there are less product on the market. There was a couple of websites that had the product this past Sunday, I decided to order it on Monday, sold out.

I did order one 2 days ago for a couple hundred dollars more than what it used to be in January, but that's the game. Most places that are sold out told me next shipment is not expected until mid-June at least.

Hopefully mine arrives within the next week as promised, I have travel plans already.
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Old 03-25-2021, 07:24 AM   #49
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I had previously posted that I sent LCI an inquiry. I received their response today. Initially it said they would respond in 24 hours which they didn't. After a 2nd prompt I received the below;

Customer Service <[email protected]>
Thu 3/25/2021 9:01 AM
Reply
Danny,

Thank you for reaching out. We would advise against any adapters or extensions to be used on our pinboxes. The use of these can cause damage to the upper deck that Lippert would not be able to assist in. We do endorse the Reese Goosebox, and if you have a Rhino style pinbox, we also have the Gooseneck Connect available.

I hope this is helpful information. Thank you for reaching out!

Lippert Care Center Axle/Chassis Tech
w: 432-LIPPERT (432-547-7378) | f: 574.534.7161


I consider the answer above a non answer. I have resubmitted my inquiry asking for further clarification of what Lippert considers an "extension" or an "adapter". If literally interpreted the B&W Companion, which used the goose ball hole (adapts) and any number of other available hitches would not be covered. As I have pointed out to them, the lack of clarity places new owners, potential buyers and dealers in an unneeded predicament. At the moment those folks want to choose what would work best for them and their particular situation then "guess" at what the wording may or may not mean. Unfortunately some very well could find out in 10 mos. when the frame cracks that their "guess" (crystal ball) didn't interpret Lippert's vague rules correctly. Notice that the only 2 options listed are Lippert and Reese products. At the moment, if interpreted literally, the only hitch options would be the 2 listed or a regular 5th wheel hitch attached through the frame. All the rest "adapt" in some way.

As an aside, which only makes the situation more murky IMO, is the fact that many failures are of the side wall which Keystone makes. If it fails was the failure due to inferior wall construction/defect or Lippert frame flex? How many fingers can point how many directions in those kinds of situations and who is left holding the bag?

I'll post back with any additional responses. I doubt they will clarify because to do so is going to alienate some manufacturers and owners....so they won't Vagueness and ambiguity is their friend.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:59 PM   #50
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I hate sounding like an @$$ but is this any different of an argument then the age old weight capacity beef we all get into about our trucks?

Manufacturer said it can haul this much,, we have to stick to it.

LCI says what it will and won’t cover, I guess we have to stick to it.

Agree or don’t, it is what it is.
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Old 03-25-2021, 02:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fishsizzle View Post
I hate sounding like an @$$ but is this any different of an argument then the age old weight capacity beef we all get into about our trucks?

Manufacturer said it can haul this much,, we have to stick to it.

LCI says what it will and won’t cover, I guess we have to stick to it.

Agree or don’t, it is what it is.

Weights are one thing.....and finite - definite. Easy to read, interpret and comply with. Vague terms such as "adapters", "extensions" etc. are just intentional vagaries without any specific, exact declaration leaving the interpretation of those terms to the individual reading them. Not good.

Think of it this way; if you put a 5th wheel hitch in your truck attach it to the frame via puck holes or drilling through the frame for the rails, did you just "adapt" that truck frame, hitch? Of course. If you attach to the goose ball hole in a bed in any way did you then "extend" from that point? Of course. "Adapt" it? Of course. The list is endless and has no answer unless there is clarification. Without it the owner will always be held hostage to the interpretation of any number of entities.

Is/will there be a clear answer to their response? I have no idea but doubt it. At that point it will then be exactly what it is now; buy whatever you want and take your chances. I could care less, and would buy whatever was "supposed" to be in compliance but they refuse to address that. On the other hand I hate these kinds of vague restrictions that serve no purpose other than to give the manufacturer any/every option for an out and leave the owners in a bind. I'll advise on any development....if any.
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Old 03-28-2021, 07:36 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluis View Post
Hey folks.

I know this to be extremely controversial, but I just wanted to share my experience.

I've purchased a Cougar 24RDS in January, to be picked up in end of March.
At the time, after exhausting research, I've decided to go with an Andersen Ultimate Hitch attached to a goose ball.

No brainer. I like how light it is, how fast I can install or remove from the bed and will have the bed free for when I'm at the campsite to go around.
Dealership was super on board, manager said himself was a huge fan of Andersen. This was all in January.

Now we are in March. Went to the dealership to sign the papers, manager said all dealerships received a memo from Keystone that claims Lippert will no longer accept warranty claims of chassis failure if the person is using an Andersen Hitch (or any other goose neck adapter OTHER THAN Reese Goose Box).

It says in the memo that the decision was taken because "over the past couple of years we have noticed an increase in the number of frame failures and sidewall damage on fifth wheels that use the Anderson Goose Neck Adapter".

I know it is very unlikely that an Andersen Ultimate Hitch will cause extra stress on the frame, and the Reese Goose Box will not. To me, looking at the physics of things, it seems that the Goose Box will actually exert more force to the front of the frame than the Andersen, but I'm no engineer.

I was even willing to just use the Andersen and risk it, but then I was thinking I don't want to get stuck between an eventual unnaproved warranty claim from Keystone and the fine print of the Andersen multimillion dollar warranty that is supposed to cover this claims.

I absolutely NEED the space and don't want a 300 pound hitch in my bed, I could use the payload for other things. Not to mention if the hitch is super heavy I'd never remove it, it would live there forever.

So to my eyes, I have 2 options:
- Reese Goose Box (although I'm actually afraid of the frame cracking now) due to it's design, and it's super expensive here in Canada.
- Demco Recon - no modifications required, 3 parts disassemble, each part 47 pounds, cheaper than Andersen.

Attached below is a copy of the memo, in case someone is curious.
I’m going on year number three with an Andersen Ultimate towing a 35 ft 5th Wheel with an empty hitch weight if 2350 lbs and gross weight of 15,000 lbs on a Lippert frame. The RV manufacturer has said nothing about the voiding of frame warranty with an Andersen. I have had no frame issues with the use of an Andersen.
I prefer the Andersen as I need to park the rig at an angle at the home base RV parking spot.
I have read the memo and believe there are many questions to be asked of Lippert. Curiously I have never seen this memo issued by the manufacturer of my RV.
Lastly I have seen the photos of “failed” Andersen hitches. Having experience in failure analysis and root cause corrective action these reported “failures” need much more data and analysis.

But, I would, if in your shoes, explore this memo further. Some have posted some legal opinions that Lippert is just blowing smoke to protect their product line of hitches.
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Old 03-28-2021, 07:45 AM   #53
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I assume this means all Andersen style hitches? I have the Ultimate 5th wheel connection in the rail mount. When they use the term gooseneck adapter it seems a bit confusing. I love the hitch but may need to start looking for a replacement.
If you read the memo, it states that they will still cover all Andersons installed before 3/15/21.
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Old 03-28-2021, 08:07 AM   #54
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I’m going on year number three with an Andersen Ultimate towing a 35 ft 5th Wheel with an empty hitch weight if 2350 lbs and gross weight of 15,000 lbs on a Lippert frame. The RV manufacturer has said nothing about the voiding of frame warranty with an Andersen. I have had no frame issues with the use of an Andersen.
I prefer the Andersen as I need to park the rig at an angle at the home base RV parking spot.
I have read the memo and believe there are many questions to be asked of Lippert. Curiously I have never seen this memo issued by the manufacturer of my RV.
Lastly I have seen the photos of “failed” Andersen hitches. Having experience in failure analysis and root cause corrective action these reported “failures” need much more data and analysis.

But, I would, if in your shoes, explore this memo further. Some have posted some legal opinions that Lippert is just blowing smoke to protect their product line of hitches.


In post 48 I included a response from the manufacturer. They advised the use of any extension or adapter with their pinbox or it would basically void their warranty. That is a very broad and inclusive statement. I immediately responded with a request for clarification last Wed. We'll see where that goes....if anywhere.
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Old 03-28-2021, 08:57 AM   #55
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If you read the memo, it states that they will still cover all Andersons installed before 3/15/21.

I read it and understand that but if something were to happen I would not want to have to battle with two companies. It just seems easy for each of them to point the finger at the other.
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Old 03-28-2021, 08:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by fluis View Post
Very good deal, indeed. I'm getting the gooseneck version (8550045 - they are sold out), the one you linked to is the rail system. Camping World and eTrailer still have them and it is discounted as well.

Here in Canada they flew off the shelves. It's really hard to get one in stock today. Prices obviously went super high as there are less product on the market. There was a couple of websites that had the product this past Sunday, I decided to order it on Monday, sold out.

I did order one 2 days ago for a couple hundred dollars more than what it used to be in January, but that's the game. Most places that are sold out told me next shipment is not expected until mid-June at least.

Hopefully mine arrives within the next week as promised, I have travel plans already.

So yesterday I made the first trip with the recon and absolutely love it. I think it offers the best of both worlds, the base is very similar to the Andersen design but offers the traditional head. I wish I would’ve went with this one before the Andersen and the Curt Q20.
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Old 03-28-2021, 09:03 AM   #57
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"Getting cranked up" on the forum is like sending smoke signals to Miami. Even if the wind doesn't "distort your message" the "spring breakers are probably pre-occupied and won't even realize the smoke signals aren't clouds spoiling their sunshine".... IOW: message completely lost in translation...

The ONLY way you're going to get your message to the right people is to contact Lippert and Keystone and express your "cranked up displeasure"... Then, if you don't change their mind and they don't change your mind, express your "cranked up displeasure" with your wallet. Problem with that is, you can't buy a towable RV that doesn't have a Lippert frame except in a very few "ultra-light models" that use the NOCO frame, and any of the fifth wheels with NOCO frames are significantly smaller than most people with a 1 ton truck would want to consider...

Sort of "damned if you do and damned if you don't".....



All Northwood Frames and ORV Frames are manufactured by their own companies and actually recommend the Andersen hitches. I'm seriously considering leaving the Lippert line completely.
As for a previous comment that the Andersen can "dent the bed of the truck", this is correct on Chev/GMC trucks as these uses a floating bed wiht no frame support at the hitch contact point. Andersen makes a nifty little support bracket that mounts to the frame to provide support.
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Old 03-28-2021, 09:04 AM   #58
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I'm not an attorney but I have dealt with a few on patent infringement, trademark issues and product liability issues. And I'm reasonably certain that Lippert has the legal right to decide the type of hitch that can and cannot be used for their frames to be warranted.
Whether you choose to ignore their decisions and use a hitch which is not approved is your choice and responsibility.
Roll the dice, or don't...

If you choose to ignore their decision and the unlikely event happens to damage your frame your recourse is a protracted legal battle with little chance of winning.
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Old 03-28-2021, 10:40 AM   #59
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Ditto, I’m going to give the Demco Recon a try. I just ordered it up and it should be here by end of week. Like you that’s the last thing I want to do is be in the middle of two companies trying to reject a warranty claim. Lesson learned for me, oh well.
Just wanted to mention that the warranty exclusion for the Anderson hitch is for hitches AFTER March 15.
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Old 03-28-2021, 11:41 AM   #60
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I have the Recon in my truck. I've not had any issues with it at all (going on over 2 years and thousands of miles towing with it. I've removed it from the bed of my truck 3 times in 2 years. The ability for it to come apart in 3 pieces is great! It makes it very, very easy to move around.... ALONE.

I have no experience with the Andersen hitch, only what I read on these forums. So, I have no opinion on them.



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