True pin weights

[Stevenforet]

Looking at the new floor plan For Avalanche the 390DS. At a dry weight of 14300 and a unloaded pin at 2740. I’m interested in seeing what people are getting at the scales. I figured at 23% of 16500(gvwr) is 3795. Would that be an accurate assumption of what true pin weights could be does anyone have experience at the scales of their numbers

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Stevenforet

Looking at the new floor plan For Avalanche the 390DS. At a dry weight of 14300 and a unloaded pin at 2740. I’m interested in seeing what people are getting at the scales. I figured at 23% of 16500(gvwr) is 3795. Would that be an accurate assumption of what true pin weights could be does anyone have experience at the scales of their numbers

Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.

[Stevenforet]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.

Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.

Originally Posted by Stevenforet

Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?

CWtheMan, stick with tires, you are 100% wrong on pin weight!!!!

The pin weight is the listed pin or approximate pin weight as the 5er left the factory. It will only grow, unless one has a Toy Hauler and a very heavy toy, and very little else in the front of the 5er.

Stevenfore, your first statement is correct, pin will grow and for best ride and towing experience it should be between 20% to 25% of GVW. Best planing method is to figure 25% of the 5er GVWR.
Our 5er scales close to 13,000# and the pin runs about 22% or about 2,700# +/-.

If you are trying to decide if you can tow with a SRW or need a DRW, with a 3,795# pin you will be too close to use a SRW, start looking for a DRW.

Ours is our only vehicle, we both drive it and don't have an issue with parking.

[JRTJH]

The 390RDS "starts out, as it leaves the factory" at 14300 pounds "shipping weight" with a pin weight of 2740 pounds. That weight, a "brochure weight" does not include batteries, spare tire or rack, propane (empty tank weight is included but not the actual LPG in the tanks), nor does that "shipping weight" include any optional equipment or accessories. It does not include a washer or dryer, both of which "sit directly over the pin".

Essentially, the "shipping weight" is a "phantom weight from a non-existent trailer that you nor I will ever see".

What you should use as a "calculated estimate of pin weight" is around 20-22% of the GVW, which is typically the "shipping weight plus the cargo capacity". In your case, that would be 14300+2200=16500. 22% would be 3630. To that, add the weight of your hitch and that's the approximate weight you'll be putting in the truck bed when the pin is hitched. Don't forget you'll also need to add any cargo in the truck, passengers and equipment you normally carry to that estimate.

Once you get that estimate, you'll be "very close" but you'll also need to consider the addition of any optional items in the trailer. Things like a "heavy multiple battery system", a washer/dryer or a "specialty, heavy mattress on the front bed" will add more weight to the pin, increasing your truck cargo.

Depending on where the tanks are located, if they are forward of the axles, full tanks will add to the pin weight, if over the axles, limited impact on pin weight or aft of the axles, some (not much) decrease in pin weight.

Looking at a rough estimate, your calculations are probably "very close to what you'll see while towing, ready for a trip"...

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

CWtheMan, stick with tires, you are 100% wrong on pin weight!!!!

The pin weight is the listed pin or approximate pin weight as the 5er left the factory. It will only grow, unless one has a Toy Hauler and a very heavy toy, and very little else in the front of the 5er.

Stevenfore, your first statement is correct, pin will grow and for best ride and towing experience it should be between 20% to 25% of GVW. Best planing method is to figure 25% of the 5er GVWR.
Our 5er scales close to 13,000# and the pin runs about 22% or about 2,700# +/-.

If you are trying to decide if you can tow with a SRW or need a DRW, with a 3,795# pin you will be too close to use a SRW, start looking for a DRW.

Ours is our only vehicle, we both drive it and don't have an issue with parking.

The trailer manufacturer MUST establish a recommended tongue weight for the purpose of vehicle certification. Once established it is added to the total vehicle certified GAWRs, the total must not be less than GVWR. That is the only time a recommended tongue weight is mentioned. It disappears once the vehicle is certified.

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 refers: On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.


Keystone owner's manual page #30. ...... for fifth wheel trailers the recommended tongue weight will be 15% - 25% of total weight.

[CWtheMan]

General info:

FMVSS 571.120; paragraph S10.4.2: The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo.

Applicable meaning being equipped with a propane system when it leaves the factory. If installed at the dealer level the cargo labeling must be adjusted to reflect the full weight of a propane system including full tanks.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Stevenforet

Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?

Nothing is rock solid with tongue weights. For your application it will be what you make it.

[travelin texans]

Your figure of that 23% of the 16.5k GVWR is your safest bet!
From our experience with a large 5th wheel with lots of storage I'd bet a coffee & donut that you'll be loaded to the max sooner than later.
Those that buy big RVs with too little truck that claim "we will load light & only travel short distance" are only trying to justify to themselves for bad choices 'cause believe me there's stuff you think you must have that will get loaded in & will never be unloaded that will probably get used once every blue moon.

[xrated]

The bold print in my signature line says it all!

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Your figure of that 23% of the 16.5k GVWR is your safest bet!
From our experience with a large 5th wheel with lots of storage I'd bet a coffee & donut that you'll be loaded to the max sooner than later.
Those that buy big RVs with too little truck that claim "we will load light & only travel short distance" are only trying to justify to themselves for bad choices 'cause believe me there's stuff you think you must have that will get loaded in & will never be unloaded that will probably get used once every blue moon.

Likely overloaded! That 5er is 43’ with two bedrooms and a 2,200# payload, we have a 32’ 5er with a 2,200# and easily use every once of it and then some!

[flybouy]

" I'll copy and paste the email confirmation from Keystone "one more time"...."
I'm betting that the "one more time" won't be even close to "the last time".

[Javi]

God help me.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

And someday when you become more familiar with RV trailer building instructions you will understand just why the RV trailer manufacturer MUST provide a recommended tongue weight.

Well the only "Recommended" pin weight that I know of is the 20% to 25% of GVW of the 5er, there is no hard number "Recommended" pin weight. The number posted in brochures is the unloaded pin weight, and no way a number you can stay at as the 5er is loaded.

Can you cite an example of documentation on manufacturing that calls for a "Recommended" pin weight?

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well the only "Recommended" pin weight that I know of is the 20% to 25% of GVW of the 5er, there is no hard number "Recommended" pin weight. The number posted in brochures is the unloaded pin weight, and no way a number you can stay at as the 5er is loaded.

Can you cite an example of documentation on manufacturing that calls for a "Recommended" pin weight?

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph; S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

That is part of the equation the trailer manufacturer MUST comply with during the vehicle certification process.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph; S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

That is part of the equation the trailer manufacturer MUST comply with during the vehicle certification process.

Show me one document from a single RV trailer manufacturer that states "The Recommended Tongue Weight of This Trailer is" using those exact words.

They are going to give you an Axle Weight Rating and a GVWR, they may in the broadest terms suggest a percentage range that the tongue or pin weight might need to be.... and they most likely will publish what the tongue weight was as certified when leaving the factory... but you will never see a document that might wind up in court that states RECOMMENDED TONGUE WEIGHT.

One can certainly extrapolate the MAXIMUM LEGAL tongue / pin weight from the sum of GVWR minus GCAWR, but not the RECOMMENDED

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Javi

Show me one document from a single RV trailer manufacturer that states "The Recommended Tongue Weight of This Trailer is" using those exact words.

They are going to give you an Axle Weight Rating and a GVWR, they may in the broadest terms suggest a percentage range that the tongue or pin weight might need to be.... and they most likely will publish what the tongue weight was as certified when leaving the factory... but you will never see a document that might wind up in court that states RECOMMENDED TONGUE WEIGHT.

One can certainly extrapolate the MAXIMUM LEGAL tongue / pin weight from the sum of GVWR minus GCAWR, but not the RECOMMENDED

If you will go back and read all the posts I've made in this thread you'll find the answer is there. For instance, in post #18 I said this; "The FMVSS says a recommended tongue weight MUST be published. They don't say how or where."

Tongue weight cannot be a given figure without proof. The proof will come from actual scaled weights. The vehicle manufacturer established a measured recommendation weight for vehicle certification purposes, it's the only time that weight is valid.

Here is a reference. Your hitch weight recommendation was 2575. That's a tad above 15% of the 15,000# GVWR.

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2020-...-313rs-tr44606

[Javi]

On my trailer and I suspect many of the newer models there is little storage over or behind the axles unless I choose to fill the galley and fresh tanks. The galley is directly over the front axle and the fresh is just behind it mostly over the rear axle.

Both the gray and black tanks within the 10" drop frame.

Even the fridge is in front of the axles.

So to ever this magical 15% I'd most likely have to empty nearly every thing from the fridge, basement, bedroom and bathroom, grey water and black tank plus fill the fresh water and probably the galley tank.

But hey... I MUST not have over 15%....

BTW, I towed it 250 miles from the dealer with nothing but the propane tanks and batteries in it, rode like crap.

[sourdough]

I think most experienced RV owners know how this works. We all know how the numbers work and how to calculate them. Cal, for some reason, continues to comment on "regulations", "FMVSS rules" etc. that don't actually address any of the comments made. Reading and real life are 2 different things IMO.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I think most experienced RV owners know how this works. We all know how the numbers work and how to calculate them. Cal, for some reason, continues to comment on "regulations", "FMVSS rules" etc. that don't actually address any of the comments made. Reading and real life are 2 different things IMO.

I try to react to the question at hand.

What most are looking for can be found in my short statement in post #8.

Nothing is rock solid with tongue weights. For your application it will be what you make it.

However, vehicle certification is a one time act for all vehicles. It requires information that will satisfy minimum DOD vehicle safety regulations and standards. Therefor, RV trailer manufacturer recommended tongue weights are statutory for that application.