Floor repair on Bullet

[JRTJH]

I bought it at Menard's. It is only stocked in black, 1/4" thickness at this store. Possibly it's available in different colors or thicknesses at other stores, but that's all they have in stock here. I considered (briefly) 1/8" thickness, also in black, but the cost of special handling, even for store delivery, made the final cost more than the 1/4" that was in stock. So, "cheap me" elected to use the 1/4".

I cut it with a 7" circular saw with a new carbide blade. No problems at all cutting it, but you will have lots of "tiny black chips" all over the work area, so plan to do your cutting on saw horses OUTSIDE !!!!!. I used a power leaf blower to clean up the mess. Easy to do.

As for sealing the HDPE in the wheel wells, I used a couple of tubes of DICOR non-leveling sealant that I had in the refrigerator. I "literally gobbed it on" and then used my finger (in a latex glove) to spread it around, push it into the cracks and smear it smooth.... As you can see, there's "lots of sealant, liberally applied" to the edges of the HDPE. Hopefully it won't leak "around the edges" LOL

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I bought it at Menard's. It is only stocked in black, 1/4" thickness at this store. Possibly it's available in different colors or thicknesses at other stores, but that's all they have in stock here. I considered (briefly) 1/8" thickness, also in black, but the cost of special handling, even for store delivery, made the final cost more than the 1/4" that was in stock. So, "cheap me" elected to use the 1/4".

I cut it with a 7" circular saw with a new carbide blade. No problems at all cutting it, but you will have lots of "tiny black chips" all over the work area, so plan to do your cutting on saw horses OUTSIDE !!!!!. I used a power leaf blower to clean up the mess. Easy to do.

As for sealing the HDPE in the wheel wells, I used a couple of tubes of DICOR non-leveling sealant that I had in the refrigerator. I "literally gobbed it on" and then used my finger (in a latex glove) to spread it around, push it into the cracks and smear it smooth.... As you can see, there's "lots of sealant, liberally applied" to the edges of the HDPE. Hopefully it won't leak "around the edges" LOL

Menard's. Man what I wouldn't give to live near one of those. We traveled through the mid west just a couple months ago. First time I was ever in a Menard's. I'd take that over a Home Depot and Lowe's combined. LOL

[danf]

To update, so far they have denied any claim. They refuse to acknowledge where the water came from and are basically hiding behind the terms of the warranty.


The worst part is that I called them and literally hung up on me. They were not willing to discuss the matter at all. Unbelievable.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by danf

To update, so far they have denied any claim. They refuse to acknowledge where the water came from and are basically hiding behind the terms of the warranty.


The worst part is that I called them and literally hung up on me. They were not willing to discuss the matter at all. Unbelievable.

This is a comment about "process" not the "propriety of who should be paying for repairs"....

From what I've read, this situation has completely bypassed all dealerships and the trailer owner is working with/responding to Keystone Customer Service ONLY... As such, it's very likely that Keystone is going to be less than cooperative with the owner. Their "typical response" is "Contact your dealership for any/all warranty considerations".... If that's not done, it's pretty much a given that Keystone will not cooperate....

If that's what has transpired here, then including the selling dealer (even 4 years after the sale) may be the only way to get Keystone to even acknowledge that there is a problem.....

Whether it's what we want to believe is "right or wrong" if it's the company policy and they stick to it, since they "own the warranty administration" either play ball their way or you won't play ball on their field.

[danf]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

This is a comment about "process" not the "propriety of who should be paying for repairs"....

From what I've read, this situation has completely bypassed all dealerships and the trailer owner is working with/responding to Keystone Customer Service ONLY... As such, it's very likely that Keystone is going to be less than cooperative with the owner. Their "typical response" is "Contact your dealership for any/all warranty considerations".... If that's not done, it's pretty much a given that Keystone will not cooperate....

If that's what has transpired here, then including the selling dealer (even 4 years after the sale) may be the only way to get Keystone to even acknowledge that there is a problem.....

Whether it's what we want to believe is "right or wrong" if it's the company policy and they stick to it, since they "own the warranty administration" either play ball their way or you won't play ball on their field.

Its been at the dealer for more than a month now.

[RVPP]

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RVPP

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.

On the "old style" 3/4" or 5/8" marine plywood floors, if they were water damaged or dry rotted, all you had to do was "cut out the bad part, install some 1/4" backing under the edges of the cutout and install a new plywood floor in place of the damaged floor. That's no longer true with the "sandwich floor system". Essentially, there's "minimal structural integrity" with the sandwich floor. It's either 1/4" luan (or two sheets of 1/8" luan glued together) that sits on top of 1.5" of Styrofoam panel (think pink stuff from Lowe's) with a 1/8" luan bottom layer. So, effectively, you have a 1/4" floor with a layer of solid insulation under it. When it gets wet (and eventually it will) the Styrofoam will hold water, the bottom luan will quickly separate and rot away, leaving a "weak and molding floor". Repairs are difficult because there's no easy way to tear it up and fasten a replacement panel in place. There's just limited places to secure the new floor to the old floor system. If there is damage to the existing floor that extends under cupboards or under the sidewall attachment area, then repair difficulty just increased exponentially.

It's not a "fun weekend project" to replace any part of a sandwich floor system.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by danf

Its been at the dealer for more than a month now.

Is the dealer coordinating the repair with Keystone, waiting for you to get Keystone to agree to pay or expecting you to give the "go ahead" to start work???? It sounds, from your posts, that the dealer isn't involved with any negotiations involving Keystone, at least I don't remember reading about their efforts, just yours.

[danf]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Is the dealer coordinating the repair with Keystone, waiting for you to get Keystone to agree to pay or expecting you to give the "go ahead" to start work???? It sounds, from your posts, that the dealer isn't involved with any negotiations involving Keystone, at least I don't remember reading about their efforts, just yours.

The dealer has been working with keystone with no luck.

[danf]

Originally Posted by RVPP

Man oh man, you folks have given me a to think about. I'm getting close to buying a 2013, 213RBS. Soft area in the 'living room' floor I thought wouldn't be a problem to repair, now I'm not sure.
Something to sleep on, thanks a lot.


Paul


Remember, this is not a rehearsal.

It takes a while for the top layer of the floor sandwich to show water damage. By the time it does, there is severe water damage to the bottom layer of the sandwich. Keystone knows this and that is why the warranty is only 1 year. They know that customers are unlikely to see water damage until they are outside of the warranty window.



If there is a soft spot, good chance most of the bottom layer has already delaminated extensively. Besides having to remove all walls, fixtures, cabinets, etc and deal with slideouts a repair has two challenges. One is that the floor sandwich lays on top of the trailer frame. If you remove the bottom layer of wood between the floor frame and the trailer frame, you have to replace it with something. The second is how the outside walls are attached. From what I can tell the outside walls rest on top of the floor sandwich. If you remove the top layer of the sandwich that sits between the aluminum floor frame and the walls, you have to replace it with something.


The floor simply is not made to be fixed. IMO look for a unit with a solid wood floor.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by danf

...
The floor simply is not made to be fixed. IMO look for a unit with a solid wood floor.

I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????

[08quadram]

My bullet is at the dealership waiting on soft floor and other things. 3 months old (since taking delivery anyway). We shall see

[danf]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????

Well, they could have made different choices for the floor. For example, why even bother having the bottom layer of wood in the floor? If they had to have a bottom layer, a sheet of 1/8" plastic would be just as light and cheaper and waterproof. They could have used wood that didn't have outside cardboard layers so it wouldn't delaminate as fast. They could have put in weep holes so trapped water could leave. For a few bucks they could have protected the exposed floor in the wheel wells. They could have even sprayed automotive undercoat in the wheel wells for a few dollars. Literally a few dollars. They wanted to build cheap, but it's a flawed design. They know it. You get a 1 year warranty on it because they know by the time the upper layer shows water damage, you will be out of warranty.



Unfortunately my dealer didn't say anything about these floors. If I had known what the floor situation was on these I would have moved to a unit with a solid floor.

[danf]

Originally Posted by 08quadram

My bullet is at the dealership waiting on soft floor and other things. 3 months old (since taking delivery anyway). We shall see

Let us know what happens. My dealer mentioned that Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the skirt on some Bullets. This was a source of some floor water problems.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by danf

Well, they could have made different choices for the floor. For example, why even bother having the bottom layer of wood in the floor? If they had to have a bottom layer, a sheet of 1/8" plastic would be just as light and cheaper and waterproof. They could have used wood that didn't have outside cardboard layers so it wouldn't delaminate as fast. They could have put in weep holes so trapped water could leave. For a few bucks they could have protected the exposed floor in the wheel wells. They could have even sprayed automotive undercoat in the wheel wells for a few dollars. Literally a few dollars. They wanted to build cheap, but it's a flawed design. They know it. You get a 1 year warranty on it because they know by the time the upper layer shows water damage, you will be out of warranty.



Unfortunately my dealer didn't say anything about these floors. If I had known what the floor situation was on these I would have moved to a unit with a solid floor.

So much of what you're suggesting "they could have..." were incorporated into my 1972 Jayco Jayraven 20' trailer. The reasons (IMHO) that they fell by the wayside are:

Weight reduction (spray undercoating is heavier than DARCO)

Production costs (using the pallets of luan already in the warehouse rather than paying to retool the plant to use plastic, not to mention the added cost of drilling holes so water can drain ($2 per trailer adds up over a 10 year production run, ask any "bean counter")

Sometimes building cheap is the only way to keep a presence in the market. Keystone and Airstream are at opposite ends of that spectrum. One starts at $11,000 the other at $55,000. Having owned an Airstream, I can attest that they are not 5 times better than a Hideout LS trailer and in some ways, they're not as livable.

I'm not defending Keystone's business plan. I'm just stating my observation as someone "watching the industry". Keystone would be bankrupt if they suddenly doubled the price of their trailers. Your "suggested improvements" honestly carry no more weight than the owner who recommends that all models "should have" a "sleep number mattress"...

Where does Keystone "draw the line" ??? Do they ignore the mattress and incorporate your ideas or do they change back to galvanized roofs and solid floors and lose the "light market buyers" ????

Keystone has a business model that's been successful. The only way to "effect a consumer inspired change" in that business model is to affect Keystone's bottom line annual profit".... That means, buy the competition and not Keystone. However, the rub: Competition builds the same floor system without a sleep number mattress and you won't find a galvanized roof or undercoated wheelwells on any of the trailers in the price range and length/weight range.....

I'm not suggesting that Keystone is right or wrong in what they do, I'm just stating that "Keystone is successful in what they do and they're not likely to change what's working for them"..... At least, not until it starts to affect their bottom line.....

[slow]

Originally Posted by danf

Let us know what happens. My dealer mentioned that Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the skirt on some Bullets. This was a source of some floor water problems.

When I first noticed and investigated the water damage on the underside of my 23RB's floor, I concluded that the source of the water was from the skirt screws not being sealed. Once I silicone all the screw holes for the skirt and walls, I had no further issues with water damaging the bottom of the floor.

[RVPP]

Any lawyers in this group? Maybe a class action lawsuit, or threat of, might get results? Just sayin'.


Paul


Remember this is not a rehearsal.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by RVPP

Any lawyers in this group? Maybe a class action lawsuit, or threat of, might get results? Just sayin'.


Paul


Remember this is not a rehearsal.

If only it were that easy. In my observation, rarely does a class action court case result in a "big win" for the consumer. Most have results where the participants get very small checks while the attorney's get very wealthy.
This of course is not necessarily true with negligence resulting in deaths but to my knowledge there have not been any deaths from "soft floors". JMHO

[German Shepherd Guy]

I now have a bevy of new projects come spring on the TT, a 28RBPR. Because of this list last fall, just after I got it, I caulked all along the wheel wells to address potential water damage. Now this year I am going to follow John's lead and address the wheel wells themselves and line them with something more appropriate to road debris coming up.


A couple of people on this list have suggested they would, if they could have a mulligan, purchase a TT with a solid wood floor. How do you find such an animal? The 2018 we have was to replace a 2007 Keystone where the floor had rotted out, and it was they same system as is now being used. I replaced the whole bedroom area and it looked good, and was an improvement but it was easy to see that the rot was creeping and more significant than just the bedroom area and though I though it would be good for 5 more years I also thought that at the end of the 5 years I would not be able to give it away. It would be parked on the back 40 and a home for rodents. So we traded in thinking that starting with a new unit I could keep the bad things from happening. Almost weekly now I hear of approaching calamity and think of all I have to do to avert it.

So, I am back to my question...Does anyone know of units that have solid wood floors that can be safely towed with less than a 2500 long bed truck, and that do not cost double or triple of what I gave for my 28RBPR?

The industry seems intent on advertising "lighter", not on "durable".
Well they are lighter!

[rjsurfer]

I'm curious how you supported the HDPE panels, are they screwed into the bottom panel or are you relying on the caulking to hold it up?

Thanks

Ron W.