Grey Tank Exploded/Dropped

[sourdough]

"Design flaw" or manufacturing defect....both irrelevant 10 years down the road....totally. In 10 years an owner can do so much that is not apparent to the eye that those things are not only unrealistic but simply illogical. That's why there are warranties that last 1,2, 3 years. You ever heard of a lifetime warranty on every component of an RV regardless of owner actions? Thought so.

[jxnbbl]

I didn't understand the $10k reference properly and didn't mean to misquote. Sorry.


I have no clue how my tanks are attached as they are enclosed and not accessible. My comments are based on a picture from another post in response to my tank flush issues and a previous statement in a response. Both indicate that the only real assembly is to place the tank in the trailer frame cavity with no screws and held by the lip of the tank. (assembly vs design issue and maintenance required)



We'll never agree on the just because it is < x% or it happens X years out of the warranty. Heck in this thread two people have had it happen within a few years. If a 250 lb tank of water fell out on a highway and triggered some catastrophic event it will end up in the court system.

[flybouy]

"Heck in this thread two people have had it happen within a few years."

Thing is you have to keep this in perspective. So 2 people out of thousands who visit the site had it happen. Those 2 people are 2 out of how many of those units sold? Thousands? Tens of thousands? So understanding the context and the scope of the issue will go a long way in appropriately deterring the causation and more importantly solving the issue so the person can move on and use the camper. Many people come here looking for solutions to problems and some just to vent. It's like a restaurant review. Folks are much more likely to blast an establishment on social media than to praise it, it's just human nature. A restaurant can serve thousands of great meals but if they screw up once you're more likely to hear about it.

Does Keystone have design flaws? Absolutely! Was the OP's issue a design flaw? If it was then I missed the evidence. From what I read the tank fell out, the dealer fixed it under warranty and "added a strap". Was the strap applied to correct a design flaw or to instill "good faith" as a customer service gesture? We don't know.

Does the industry on a whole have quality issues? You bet! Spend some time reading this forum and a few recurring themes will become evident. Some folks come here just to rant and some of these folks will NEVER be satisfied. A lot of these folks are first time camper owners and have unrealistic expectations of what to expect quality wise from their investment. Often these inexperienced owners expect perfection in an "entry level budget model". It's sort of like buying the cheapest car on the dealer's lot and expecting the quality and performance of a Mercedes. Just not realistic.

Often the first thing these folks go to is the call for a "class action lawsuit" and expect that to "fix" their issue immediately. Again, just unrealistic. Some folks come here thinking that Keystone RV Company will read their complaint and respond. This also is not realistic, the disclaimer at the bottom of each page clearly states that there is no affiliation. To my knowledge no one from Keystone RV has ever even logged on to the forum. So the vast number of members here that try to help are doing so from a perspective of having a vast amount of experience. Several members are RV Techs that work on RV's everyday and I think you'll find their advice invaluable if you choose to utilize their knowledge.

Would "a 250 lb tank of water fell out on a highway and triggered some catastrophic event it will end up in the court system."? Certainly it could but that's different from it would, blanket statements can't be made when there's so may variables. If you are speeding down the highway and "go Dukes of Hazzard" over a bridge and the tank drops out and injures someone than I'd imagine it would end up in court, with you as the defendant." If it was a "design flaw or a manufacturing error" it may or may not end up in court. Your insurance carrier would be the coverage and whether or not they seek reimbursement would again, depend on several variables such as would it make economical sense for them to pursue it. They won't spend possible hundreds of thousands of dollars and tears of court time to recoup a lesser amount of money. Can you sue personally if it happens to you? Of course you can. There are plenty of lawyers that are willing to take your money.

[LegionX]

New picture shows the extra straps that the dealership added.

I did send a message to Keystone about this and my concern about the safety aspect of it happening on the highway - lol no response obviously.

As an engineer/programmer I do view this as a design flaw. Those frame rails are a single point of failure and a tank dropping out to me is a major safety issue. I'm sure someone could point out several other areas in an RV that is similar.

As having worked in manufacturing and integration I understand a company doing the minimum to keep costs down. i.e. - not adding extra straps to start with.

Either way, lol, it probably won't ever be redesigned to what I would want - which means I'll have to inspect the other tanks and strap them better myself. Now that I know of the potential then it's my responsibility to ensure it doesn't happen again.

That's my final 2 cents. Thanks everyone! Definitely an awesome community on here!

p.s. - there is a maid rite nearby....lol, and we have our first house showing today

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jxnbbl

I didn't understand the $10k reference properly and didn't mean to misquote. Sorry.


I have no clue how my tanks are attached as they are enclosed and not accessible. My comments are based on a picture from another post in response to my tank flush issues and a previous statement in a response. Both indicate that the only real assembly is to place the tank in the trailer frame cavity with no screws and held by the lip of the tank. (assembly vs design issue and maintenance required)



We'll never agree on the just because it is < x% or it happens X years out of the warranty. Heck in this thread two people have had it happen within a few years. If a 250 lb tank of water fell out on a highway and triggered some catastrophic event it will end up in the court system.

OK Let's look at this from a "purely business (dollars and cents) perspective"...

Keystone does not have a "significant problem with tanks falling out". Historically, 2 tanks failed out of 2, 3 or 4 tanks in every trailer produced in the last 10 years. That's roughly a million tanks with 2 failures.

Let's assume (I know) that it would cost Keystone $5 per tank to reinforce them on future trailers and $100 per trailer to retrofit existing trailers. That would be "a multiple million dollar expense" to "fix"....

Now, let's assume (again, I know) that the "legal team at THOR Industries" is asked for input on the "cost differential to fix vs litigate any problem trailer claims".... That legal team (trust me when I say they employ hundreds of legal people in their company) would weigh how much it costs to settle claims for "two claims in 10 years" vs "retrofit/resolve future builds"...

It doesn't take a "mental genius" to come to the conclusion that settling two claims in 10 years is significantly less costly to THOR Industries than fixing the problem would be.....

THOR is not in the business of being a "protector of humanity" rather they are in the business of "making money for their investors" (PROFIT)....

From a "logical perspective", why would they choose to spend profits to fix something that they can "settle out of court" for pennies on the dollar?????

In the corporate world, it's not always about "protecting consumers"... In fact, it's almost entirely based on making money......

This situation, to me, is no different than Ford building the Pinto or Firestone building tires for the Explorer..... Those two situations may have molded future company decisions, but Ford still built cars and Firestone still builds tires. They still have accidents and they still have blowouts. In the "grand scheme, Ford and Firestone are still making money and so will THOR.

[Benr]

I had black tank drop out on hiway in Wyoming. I hit a dip in road. Cost $800 repair. Keystone covered the bill. Trailer was three years old. Bolts holding angle iron in place dropped out not fastened down. Per tech inspection.

[JulieC]

We lost our fresh water tank on a Forest River surveyor about 4 years ago. Happened a little over a year after purchase (outside of warranty). Multiple appeals to the dealer and directly to Forest River, but they refused to fix it. We ended up having to order the tank from FR and my husband moved one of the support bars slightly closer, then installed the new tank and reinforced it with straps.

While researching the issue, I found that the tank manufacturer specifies that the tank should rest on a platform, such as plywood. Apparently the RV industry does not agree. Ours flexed out between the two support bars.

We have since traded that unit for a Bullet Premier about 2 years ago. So far workmanship on the Keystone has been better than the last FR trailer (our first 2010 289bh surveyor was perfect from the get go), but we still travel with just a few gallons in the tank.

[captain Morgan]

This happened to us in Yuma in very hot weather. Ours only dropped on one end due to the fact that the angle iron brackets were installed incorrectly. I made a quick fix in Yuma with some lumber bailing ties, and when I got home I had to redrill and move the angle iron about 3/4” over at one end. This happened on a Jayco trailer.

[firestation12]

Whoa! Looking at the repair photo of your gray tank, I’m thinking that 2 flimsy strips of plumber’s strap isn’t a proper fix. Plumber’s tape is used as a medium to secure light weight abs and pvc pipe to framing material. Definitely not rated for any load bearing applications. Maybe what I think I’m seeing, is something more substantial than plumber’s tape. If So, I’ll take my earned lashings for stiring the pot.

[toolittletime]

I have heard lots of folks bash camping World over the years, but just like the OP I have had nothing but good service from them. Some repairs were even done the same day while I waited. Especially the Lubbock Texas bunch.

Full disclosure.....I am not an employee, just a satisfied customer.
Tim

[Jerry S]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Obviously we are not going to meet on this. The ludicrous example af 10 yrs later being a design flaw isn't worth trying to explain. There are "fool proof" anything in life. If you drive a new truck off the lot and they forgot to put the bolts holding down the seats that's a manufacturing error, not a design error. Lastly, please don't misquote what I said. I said if all the improvements that everyone desires were implimented, not just your wishes. It wasn't all about you, it was a broader disscussion.

Good luck to you and safe travels.

Aircraft manufacturers can be held accountable for 30 years or longer, and the owner has to pay for a inspection every year.

[GliderSr]

I have a friend that this happened to while on the road. So a word of caution if ur going to dry camp. Those tanks are not secured like everyone thinks they are. I have a 2107 Bullet and will not drive with the the fresh water tanks full or even near full. The other holding tanks are no exception. I feel ur pain. It has been a frustrating experience trying to get any issue fixed even under warranty . I have had a myriad of issues with my unit since day one. Wishing you lots of luck . I will never buy another Keystone product.

[Dadmech]

Great news, did they happen to put “backup supports on the other tanks?
Glad it didn’t slow your plans down too much. 👍

[Dadmech]

Originally Posted by Jerry S

Aircraft manufacturers can be held accountable for 30 years or longer, and the owner has to pay for a inspection every year.

Whoa! 😳 Totally different situation, usage, physics, circumstances etc. involved IMHO.

[digitalpa]

I have a one year old Keystone 27rls TT. Mine had 3 factory defects. I was surprised to learn the dealer has to request permission from Keystone to repair a defect. Two of mine should have been caught at the factory:

1 - black tank slide valve would not open and close as normal. Dealer tech muscled it open and closed - said it was fine. 5 days later the handle broke off in a cross country trip. I put the new part in myself on the road.

2 - spare tire and wheel fell off. Never torqued down properly. Keystone reimbursed me for replacement. (Also issued a 1099 to me for the payment. Guess they don't make many and accounting insisted on it.
3 - piano hinged swing out pantry door misaligned and gouged the floor badly. Factory said fix the door. No replacement floor. Dealer did it anyway.
A couple other minor fixes I did myself. Dealer was overwhelmed with work and not enough repairmen.

[actonguy]

your failure sounds similar to my experience. following some interior cleaning of our 2006 montana mountaineer at home, the 30 gal galley sink tank became full. while walking around inside the coach, before emptying the tank; we heard a loud crash, and found water leaking out, and the still full tank lying on the belly skin.
cutting to the chase, after disassembly i discovered the tank had been located midships on the chassis, utilizing a structural cross member for support of the the flange on one side of the tank. having been the owner of a welding business, i can recognize poor welding immediately, and this was the cause of my failure. the light gauge cross member was welded to the thick, heavy frame member with what is called a 'bird****' weld with no penetration or holding power. the weight of the filled tank was too much for this poor connection, causing the entire cross member to lay over enough to allow the tank to fall down, with resulting damage. no warranty for my situation, and had to fix it myself; being certain that the cross member was substantially welded this time. fortunately we were not on the road. advising everyone that if you have a midships mounted tank using a cross member for support; inspect the welding attachment points for inferior welds that could fail. proper welding engineering by the manufacturer could prevent such problems.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by toolittletime

I have heard lots of folks bash camping World over the years, but just like the OP I have had nothing but good service from them. Some repairs were even done the same day while I waited. Especially the Lubbock Texas bunch.

Full disclosure.....I am not an employee, just a satisfied customer.
Tim

Not trying to redirect or compromise the thread but the OP had great response from Camping World as you have had. Just wanted to say that CW in Lubbock takes care of me in a stellar fashion as they did you. That's not saying all CWs are created equal, just that some locations are better than others.

[notanlines]

Jerry, just to clear up one minor detail "Aircraft manufacturers can be held accountable for 30 years or longer"
Yes, but only because of the power of attorneys and jurors. Not because they are actually guilty, but because there are people with deep pockets on both sides willing to go to court.
Generally speaking, common folks are only able to fit small objects in their pockets and big businesses have attorneys on staff.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by digitalpa

I have a one year old Keystone 27rls TT. Mine had 3 factory defects. I was surprised to learn the dealer has to request permission from Keystone to repair a defect. Two of mine should have been caught at the factory:

...

That's a "slight misrepresentation" of what actually happens....

The dealership doesn't "request permission to repair your RV"... Heck, he can just do it and pay for it from his dealership profits. (and some do just that)...

In reality, what he is doing is "requesting prior approval from Keystone to do the repairs, so he can be reimbursed for the work"... If Keystone doesn't approve the repairs, they won't pay him to do them.

So, it's not "permission" it's "authorization"... All about the MONEY.....

[hxckidd]

I am surprised more people aren't concerned with what they used as a fix. no way I would trust that strap for any amount of weight other than maybe an empty tank. This seems like a poor attempt to fix a situation with $5 in supplies.