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Old 05-21-2021, 05:31 AM   #41
Hellbilly13
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
They only way to prevent this from occurring again is preventative maintenance and monitoring the connections.

Preventative maintenance ... check the accessible connections such as the wire connections inside the camper.

The monitoring the connections ... Make certain when plugging into the pedestal and side of the camper that the plugs fit with "positive" force and do not feel loose. If you feel ANY heat in ANY plug or receptacle investigate WHY. Visually inspect the plug connections EVERY time you connect or disconnect for signs of heat or carbon tracing on the connectors.

As far as I am aware, there are no devices that will monitor this for you. By the time the EMS or circuit breaker has interupted the power due to an issue with the cable and connections the those connections have become sever and require immediate attention.
Thank you. This is my plan going forward. I will closely inspect all connections every time. I will obsessively feel for heat everywhere I can reach. And I will take it more seriously if the ems repeatedly kicks the power off. I wrongly assumed it was the park's issue, not my rig because it had just worked fine the last spot we were in.
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Old 05-21-2021, 05:48 AM   #42
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There's always a "what if" that gets thrown into the mix...

What if the EMS shorts out?
What if there's a short in the RV shore power connector?
What if ?????

If the EMS shorts out, what difference does it make where it's at (as long as it doesn't start a fire INSIDE the RV... Same can be said for any one (or more) of the circuit breakers as well as any location in the ROMEX or in any junction box where the wires are twisted together to branch circuits too. This includes the shore power connector and shore power cord (both ends)...

If there's a short in the RV connector, wouldn't the pedestal circuit breaker trip ? The EMS function is not to protect against shorts in the connector, although it would disrupt power as soon as the "supply/return" was imbalanced or the voltage/frequency was "out of tolerance".... The function of an EMS is not to protect against a short circuit (increased current flow) and all it's advertised to do is "current indication (how many amps are flowing through the meter).... So, no matter where it's located, expecting it to "shut off power if a plug gets hot" is expecting it to do something it's not designed to do.....

The "what if ..." from all that I've seen are conditions that the EMS is not intended to protect against. A loose connection, if it results in an "open" condition" then the EMS would shut down power. On the other hand, if it results in a "continuous circuit that gets hot and starts a fire", then no EMS would protect against that problem. There is no "thermal protection" in any EMS, however, if there is some "other condition that occurs" that IS a function the EMS monitors, then it would disrupt power. In other words, once the connection "burns through" and the wire no longer conducts electricity, the EMS would react to the "open circuit"... but it can't react to a "hot circuit that is still functioning"....

That said, no EMS, external or internal has "heat sensing capability" and no EMS would protect against a corroded or loose/damaged connection in a plug as long as there is no "over/under voltage, over/under frequency, open circuit.... The EMS "leaves shorts for the circuit breaker".... Don't ask more of your EMS than it's designed to provide.
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Old 05-21-2021, 05:50 AM   #43
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Thank you. This is my plan going forward. I will closely inspect all connections every time. I will obsessively feel for heat everywhere I can reach. And I will take it more seriously if the ems repeatedly kicks the power off. I wrongly assumed it was the park's issue, not my rig because it had just worked fine the last spot we were in.
It happens to all of us and for a myriad of reasons. Last year a similar situation happened to me. We were camping and my 30 amp twist lock inlet on the side of the camper failed and looked like the Chernobyl reactor. Not an excuse but the DW and I had some bad health issues and it was the first outing in over a year. The CG was suffering brown outs and the Class A MH next to us had the generator starting several times automatically because the voltage dropped so low. The 30 amp breaker on our pedestal tripped and I made the mistake of assuming it was the same issue. So I dug out the 50 amp dog bone adapter and connected it. Cycled the breaker and it was like someone used an arc welder on the inlet. An hour so later later after finding a replacement inlet and twist lock plug we were back on line.
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Old 05-21-2021, 07:21 AM   #44
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Good advice so far.

Critical issues to me would be loose, sloppy connections on a power cable. Those can cause severe, costly damage. As far as an EMS or breaker kicking off because of it....no it won't.

I just happened to be at my MIL's house one winter day doing some stuff for her. I was in the back bathroom doing some plumbing and got a whiff of that "burning electrical" smell. Hollered at her and asked if she smelled or saw anything....."no". I went to the front of the house and as soon as I entered the living room saw smoke pouring out of an outlet. Tried to unplug the space heater plugged in there but it was melted to it. Went outside to the breaker box and shut down power. Pulled the faceplate off (broke it) and there were still small flames flickering inside the wall. Put that out and replaced it all.

MIL's eyesight and sense of smell weren't the best and except for a stroke of luck (me being there) there's no telling what would have happened. And, nary a breaker kicked off - it didn't care or know that there was a loose, high resistance connection in that plug wreaking havoc - it was fat dumb and happy. The way she would have known that would have been when she plugged/unplugged the heater....but she would have had to be aware of what she was looking for. Same goes for every other electrical connection inside and outside the RV.

As far as an EMS that just gives a code (E4) I would be upgrading to one that monitors voltages real time that you can see; either on the unit or something mounted inside. If your EMS is repeatedly shutting off showing low voltage and you suspect park power, check with a neighbor, are they having the same issue? If no unplug the EMS and check it with a VOM to see if it tells you anything.

Just some quick thoughts on your situation. Hopefully it never happens again.
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Old 05-22-2021, 05:07 AM   #45
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Although this is our first trailer, I do understand electrical. First I would always put the EMS close to the power source to protect everything downstream of that.



Second "try and control" what you don't have control of! I had the same thing happen last year where the plug of my ems was burnt. Not bad as it is still usable, but bad enough to address it in the future. First I cleaned up the plug. Then I carry an extra plug (just in case).


Most important I created my own "dog bone" a 30A male to 30A female. This way if the campground plug is loose it scorches a low cost plug and not an expensive EMS. Just got back from a 5 week trip and my only modification to this would be to use a lower profile male plug so that I can close the power station door!!


As others have mentioned in the forum - you can always use a 50-30A dogbone as 50A are not used as often and don't have the frequency of problem...but as proven in this case, it does happen.
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Old 05-22-2021, 06:06 AM   #46
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The only thing about "cleaning up" a damaged plug is that if it's a molded plug you can't see damage beyond the prongs. Arcing that causes discoloration will cause a heat build up inside the plug and wire. If there is any sign of heat damage on the plug (I.e. softening/melting beside the conductor) then it's severely damaged. Any discoloration of the prongs that cannot be removed by LIGHTLY sanding it off is sever damage.

Between RVs and boats I've seen shore power cables that had wire damage as far as 6" back from the plug. I'm in the habit of checking the temp of the plug several times when first setting up and through the stay. Like any defect the earlier it's detected and addressed the lower the incidence of damage.
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Old 05-22-2021, 10:57 AM   #47
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The actual sequence was going to progressive for a new pigtail and their tech support took a look at the damage and just followed their recommend since the integrity of the actual plug was intact...btw you can’t buy a pigtail from them and would have to make your own but as soon as you open this up you void the warranty.
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Old 05-22-2021, 02:51 PM   #48
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My last reply lit something in me to correct my “fix” just ordered the low profile plug so that it will be ready for our next trip
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Old 05-22-2021, 03:57 PM   #49
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The actual sequence was going to progressive for a new pigtail and their tech support took a look at the damage and just followed their recommend since the integrity of the actual plug was intact...btw you can’t buy a pigtail from them and would have to make your own but as soon as you open this up you void the warranty.
The recommendation is to use an accessory "pigtail with 30 amp connectors on each end. That way, your "pin connection on the EMS remain tight and secure. You risk only the "sacrificial pins on the replaceable male end of your 1 foot pigtail. When/if you "arc and burn the pins" in a loose pedestal plug, you can just replace the $10 male plug rather than try to talk PI out of a pigtail or worse yet, buy a new $300 EMS.

Here's one "commercial accessory pigtail" that's available on the market. Most people just build their own with a 1' length of 30 amp cable, a 30 amp male and a 30 amp female connector, all available at Lowe's.

This is the link to a commercial version at eTrailer.com: https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Power-Co...waAlx8EALw_wcB
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Old 05-23-2021, 02:39 AM   #50
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...

Here's one "commercial accessory pigtail" that's available on the market. ...

Thanks for the link. This is exactly what I built as I could not find one! My new modification is that the male end will be a "low profile plug". The problem with the one pictured is that when plugged into most power stations on our trip the "handle" would not allow the door to the power station to close and the weight of the EMS hanging on the thing actually pulled it out (indicating that most of these outlets are loose!!!)


The remedy I used was a simple cable lock wrapped around the station door compressing the plug into the outlet. This one can easily do this as it adjusts to variable lengths:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



This is the new plug that I will try that is similar to the OEM on the EMS. I believe this will allow the door to fully close with little clearance instead of being unable to close.
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Old 05-23-2021, 03:43 AM   #51
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Thanks for the link. This is exactly what I built as I could not find one! My new modification is that the male end will be a "low profile plug". The problem with the one pictured is that when plugged into most power stations on our trip the "handle" would not allow the door to the power station to close and the weight of the EMS hanging on the thing actually pulled it out (indicating that most of these outlets are loose!!!)


The remedy I used was a simple cable lock wrapped around the station door compressing the plug into the outlet. This one can easily do this as it adjusts to variable lengths:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



This is the new plug that I will try that is similar to the OEM on the EMS. I believe this will allow the door to fully close with little clearance instead of being unable to close.
That Amazon link is prefect for my recumbent trike. I saw a picture that looked as though it was not coiled up like a spring.
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Old 05-23-2021, 04:18 AM   #52
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Its just a 'feel good' bike cable for the EMS. Not much of a deterrent. But the good part of this is that the lock adjusts it length on the cable so can form a locked loop from a couple of inches to the entire length.
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Old 05-23-2021, 04:30 AM   #53
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Its just a 'feel good' bike cable for the EMS. Not much of a deterrent. But the good part of this is that the lock adjusts it length on the cable so can form a locked loop from a couple of inches to the entire length.
That's what I need. Flex able and enough to keep honest people honest.
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Old 05-23-2021, 04:53 AM   #54
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Thanks for the link. This is exactly what I built as I could not find one! My new modification is that the male end will be a "low profile plug". The problem with the one pictured is that when plugged into most power stations on our trip the "handle" would not allow the door to the power station to close and the weight of the EMS hanging on the thing actually pulled it out (indicating that most of these outlets are loose!!!)


The remedy I used was a simple cable lock wrapped around the station door compressing the plug into the outlet. This one can easily do this as it adjusts to variable lengths:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



This is the new plug that I will try that is similar to the OEM on the EMS. I believe this will allow the door to fully close with little clearance instead of being unable to close.
I know what you mean with some old cg with enclosures that won't fully close with a 30a plug with a "handle". I've never worried about it as long as the cover closes "most of the way" it will still shed water.

I wouldn't depend on "clamping down" on the cover to secure the plug with a lock for several reasons. First off if there's an issue with the cable, plug, or electrical fire between the trailer breaker panel and that plug it will delay or possibly prevent you from disconnecting the plug.

Secondly it doesn't address the issue of the loose connection. If the plug falls out that means one of two things, either there's too much force pulling on it or the receptacle is not providing enough contact with the plug to hold it in. In either case, holding the plug in with the cover and a lock doesn't address the problem. I'd use the cable lock to support the weight of the EMS itself and if the plug won't stay in the receptacle then address that issue with the cg management. When you get to a cg with a more modern shore power box your current method of "securing" the plug won't work.

This is another reason the I'm not a fan of pedestal plug in EMS units but that's my opinion. The 30 Amp connections in many CG's are worn out from use but I think the proliferation of EMS units hanging on them will accelerate the wear. JMHO
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Old 05-27-2021, 12:07 PM   #55
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I've not had much experience yet with our toy hauler, but early on I looked at the ems type monitors, still don't have one.

I thought they were mainly to protect your rig from a miss-wired pedestal or loose wires within the pedestal. So far I've plugged into every pedestal, 50A, without any issues.

I've just read this entire thread and I'm more confused than before.

Also what about the "extra" connections out in the weather? Won't that be an issue in rain etc? I know some of the ems units have enclosures for the plugs, but wet amperage around on the wet grass can give a person quite a surprise.

So bottom line, why do I really need one of these? I'm guessing my first comment about a bad receptacle would be the main reason.

I "think" I should buy one, but not sure. Also there are a LOT of different ones out there and from what I've read, some say they are an ems, but aren't.

Sorry to show my ignorance on the subject, but getting ready to head to MI for aberrant weeks and would like to be better prepared. 👍

Thanks, Dan
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Old 05-27-2021, 12:31 PM   #56
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I've not had much experience yet with our toy hauler, but early on I looked at the ems type monitors, still don't have one.

I thought they were mainly to protect your rig from a miss-wired pedestal or loose wires within the pedestal. So far I've plugged into every pedestal, 50A, without any issues.

I've just read this entire thread and I'm more confused than before.

Also what about the "extra" connections out in the weather? Won't that be an issue in rain etc? I know some of the ems units have enclosures for the plugs, but wet amperage around on the wet grass can give a person quite a surprise.

So bottom line, why do I really need one of these? I'm guessing my first comment about a bad receptacle would be the main reason.

I "think" I should buy one, but not sure. Also there are a LOT of different ones out there and from what I've read, some say they are an ems, but aren't.

Sorry to show my ignorance on the subject, but getting ready to head to MI for aberrant weeks and would like to be better prepared. 👍

Thanks, Dan

You need an EMS.

https://rvmentor.com/2019/11/24/ems-...o0_1M3_i4tQ-P0

https://thecampingnerd.com/rv-surge-...30-amp-50-amp/

https://www.technorv.com/articles/do...rge-protector/
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Old 05-27-2021, 04:41 PM   #57
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Thanks Cavie for the informational links.

So what would the best three or so EMS systems be? I have a 50A need.

Thanks!
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Old 05-27-2021, 05:20 PM   #58
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Cavie's second link rates them.
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Old 05-27-2021, 05:27 PM   #59
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Thanks Cavie for the informational links.

So what would the best three or so EMS systems be? I have a 50A need.

Thanks!
Hughes Watchdog would be my first choice. Progressive and Surge Guard are the oldest in the business but they have both been sold and warranty is not what it used to be.
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Old 05-27-2021, 06:37 PM   #60
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Hughes Watchdog would be my first choice. Progressive and Surge Guard are the oldest in the business but they have both been sold and warranty is not what it used to be.
I just ordered from etrailer the Hughes Autoformer Watchdog PWD50-EPO. Should be here next week.

Thanks for all the help and sorry for hijacking the thread...

Dan
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