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Old 09-21-2020, 04:09 PM   #21
LewisB
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Originally Posted by Rocketsled View Post
(partial quote....)
Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped...But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes....If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training...It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...
In your original post #1, you tell us you are over your payload weight and YOU brought this up because YOU think payload is a tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. And you conclude your vehicle is safe because you think that is how it should be interpreted. You have disagreed with most responses to your original post. Now, you want us to think you are being "reasonable" and "we just don't get it"?

I suspect you know this is not a complex issue. Vehicles are certified by the manufacturer to be able to handle a specific load. The numbers that apply to you in this case are the certification labels (payload) on your vehicles certification stickers. In order to be legal, you must use your vehicle without exceeding ANY of the manufacturer's certification levels; Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Combined Weight, Front & Rear Axle Weights, etc. must all be in compliance. It doesn't matter "what you think" about this and there is very little "interpretation" needed. You have actually done what is needed by weighing the vehicle then looking at the numbers. They are either over or under!

Yes, local/state tax codes and license requirements will be impacted by the manufacturer's certifications. Those codes and requirements will vary widely by location. It doesn't matter what you think about that, how creatively you try to interpret it, or whether or not you agree with them. NONE of this changes the vehicle's capabilities associated with the manufacturer's certification.

You are either within all the physical design requirements and certifications; or you are not. The Payload Certification stickers are the final arbitrator between legal and illegal - it is not the tax code or anyone's opinion. Your most recent post should have been your first post. You weighed your vehicle, found it over weight, and need to reduce some weight. That's a good story and one we all can associate with!

No, it is not odd that the manufacturers attempt to make their vehicles fit within certain tax codes; it's called competition and marketing. But what you call the "legislative" requirements have nothing to do with determining your specific vehicles' capabilities - those are simply government's way of getting their pound of your flesh. Again, something we either live with or move to a new area. Just sayin'...
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:34 PM   #22
Ken / Claudia
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3/4 tons having GVWR all at 10,000 GVWR maybe not be odd at all. Currently if that is the case it could be a only target number they want. Or what the build stats they are wanting as a goal.

Look back a few years.

Just a few years ago Fords were 8600/8800 range in 3/4 tons ,1 ton SWR 9900.
Now my 2013 truck is lower than a 2020. The 2013 is a f350 at 11,500.
I beleive my buddies 2017 is above 12,000 GVWR. It's still a pickup, used as a personal pickup and licensed as a personal pickup. If he was hauling new RVs to dealers as a job. It would be reclassified as a comm truck.
RVs have gotten much bigger in my life as too the pickups that pull them. What's the next 3/4 ton GVWR. I bet more and not less.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:40 PM   #23
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My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rocketsled View Post
My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.

You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:59 PM   #25
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At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.
People do that all the time... (drive with a full fresh tank and garage or with two big 6v batteries on the tongue)....

They "almost always have (or buy) a bigger truck" especially after they tow across a CAT scale.....
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:18 PM   #26
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You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...
Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:44 PM   #27
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Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!

Thank you Mark. Been a blessed, happy, wonderful ride.
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:46 PM   #28
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Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:03 PM   #29
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Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.

I completely understand where you are...BTDT more than once. And, cheap? I'm a bang for the buck kind of guy and things have to prove their worth to me for me to consider spending my money....I am cheap, about some things. Others I don't care.

Safety, peace of mind, happiness; those things don't have a bang for the buck, they just are. I open the checkbook accordingly. Mull that over while you worry, repeatedly, about what to remove, what you'll miss, wish you had, at what point are you're going to be illegal...unsafe? Watch DW and the kids while driving....is that cargo worth riding the razor's edge??
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:50 AM   #30
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I personally think the listed weights on any vehicle (as far as payload and towing capacity go), is simply the manufacturer's attempt to COYA. Granted, there may be some federal regulations for posting as such, but by posting the weights, the manufacture is saying, ...

As long as you stay within this limitation, your vehicle is safe from failure. So if something goes wrong, yes ... we the manufacturer are liable. However, we all know the vehicle is capable of handling more. But (more) brings the weights closer to the edge of failure. Exactly where that failure is, well,... it's out there. But we're not saying, because we know, whatever weights we post, we know the owner may go over. So, if they go over the "safe" weight and then there is a failure, we are not going to take responsible. It's all on the owner now. (But in reality, we all know the vehicle can handle much more.)

It's exactly the same way speed limits are posted on the highway. It's posted 55, but everyone drives 70 and the police let everyone get away with it. However, IF a mishap occurs, then you can be ticked for speeding too. The road is highly capable of handling 70 mph traffic, but 55 is the "safe" speed. Yet, folks speed over the posted limit all the time.

Your truck can probably handle an additional 300 pounds with no issues ever. But, in the long term, if issues do arise, just remember, you stepped outside the manufacturers "safety" numbers. You can't lay fault at the manufacturer. And yes, eventually there is truly a limit where too much weight is simply too much. Where that is, is truly anyone's guess.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:56 AM   #31
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Sure. We're all adults here (at least superficially) and I'll take the blame for failure there. I learned that racing cars a time or two ago.

I let this peter out because most everything's been said. It's not like I'm going to swap the truck before the weekend is out, I'll just leave some stuff at home while I sort out what really truly can stay at home.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:07 AM   #32
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..... It's not like I'm going to swap the truck before the weekend is out, I'll just leave some stuff at home while I sort out what really truly can stay at home.
On my current fifth wheel and tow vehicle, I am well, well within weights. But your comment here got me to laughing a bit (about myself), because it seem every trip we go on, week-end or longer, I'm juggling things in and out of the trailer or bed of the truck to keep from having so much junk hauled around all the time.

For example, we have a 35 gallon extra water container with a water transfer pump for times when we know we will not have access to water. We have 2 generators for those times we anticipate no shore power electricity. We have a Blue Tote for hauling waste from the holding tanks when we don't have full hook-up. The list is quite extensive of all the "junk" we've got.

Our's is not because of weight, it's driven by the type of camping we do for the next trip. Someday, I may own a Semi Truck flat bed and simply put the camper on top of it. Then I can bring ALL my junk!

Just a parting FYI: Rotating the "junk" keeps the "junk" to a minimum. And face it, space in any RV sells at premium prices!
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:11 AM   #33
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Bumper-pull toy haulers don't have a lot of space...which means the stuff gets pitched in the garage....which means I have to unload the garage when we get to camp and when we clean up. which makes me crabby if I have to move too much of it.
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Old 12-07-2020, 04:05 AM   #34
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A person's (mis)interpretation of the law will never hold up in court. If you misinterpreted the law on what GVWR means or how it is applied then if you are overloaded then you are open to litigation if you are involved in an accident.

Even turning your 1500 into being 3/4 or even 1ton capable with all the spring, axle, tire upgrades even boxing the frame WILL NOT change your GVWR. You might be capable of hauling considerably more - even safely. BUT unless you're the proprietor of a certified coach builder, legally speaking there's no way to increase your truck's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). This rating comes from the vehicle manufacturer, and is equal to the truck's curb weight plus towing capacity plus cargo capacity.

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Old 12-07-2020, 08:41 AM   #35
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To the OP: do you realize that you have now documented your overweight condition and willingness to flaunt maximum weights? A statement given publicly can and may be used in a court of law as it is not here say and given willingly. Think about that as you are giving a statement at the accident scene. Even if the accident is not your fault.
Please post any future itinerary on here so we can make sure we are not on the road with you. Good luck.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:25 AM   #36
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Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.
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Old 12-07-2020, 12:44 PM   #37
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Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.

Everyone who tows with a truck not up to snuff seems to take a rationalization road. I don't think it is illegal to pull a camper over the manufacturers stated payload limit but as others have pointed out, if there is an accident, the potential for you falling victims of predatory lawyers isn't worth the risk. Do what you like Rocketsled, I personally don't really care but to keep defending an indefensible OPINION is a waste of breath as you will do what you wish and those that don't agree will do as they wish.
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Old 12-07-2020, 01:27 PM   #38
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Good lord, let’s all just live in ignorance then. Because asking the dealership sure didn’t result in the transfer of knowledge.

I think it’s been determined in this thread that, while the vehicle is physically capable of handling the load, that it’s still breaking the law due to an arbitrary 10,000 threshold, it would result in legal liability and that the thread opener (me) is working to make it legal, but by all means, add more fuel to the fire.
Arbitrary means random or on a whim. I don't agree that the manufacturers just choose a GVWR number out of a hat and run with it. And even if they did, IT'S REQUIRED not suggested that it be followed. I've been on the short end of this conversation before and to me it appears that this one is simply an attempt to justify a particular truck is plenty for the job even though the numbers don't back it up.
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Old 12-07-2020, 02:05 PM   #39
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Do what you like Rocketsled, I personally don't really care but to keep defending an indefensible OPINION is a waste of breath as you will do what you wish and those that don't agree will do as they wish.
What I've done, is measure and adjust so I'm not overweight. But folks gloss over a now overlong thread and assume I haven't taken the advice to heart.

My last Cat Scale verified weight has the Front and Rear Axle weight at 10020.


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Arbitrary means random or on a whim. I don't agree that the manufacturers just choose a GVWR number out of a hat and run with it. And even if they did, IT'S REQUIRED not suggested that it be followed. I've been on the short end of this conversation before and to me it appears that this one is simply an attempt to justify a particular truck is plenty for the job even though the numbers don't back it up.
As I've said, All three manufacturers use 10,000 regardless of equipment. It doesn't mean exceeding it doesn't violate the law.
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Old 12-07-2020, 03:26 PM   #40
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What I've done, is measure and adjust so I'm not overweight. But folks gloss over a now overlong thread and assume I haven't taken the advice to heart.

My last Cat Scale verified weight has the Front and Rear Axle weight at 10020.




As I've said, All three manufacturers use 10,000 regardless of equipment. It doesn't mean exceeding it doesn't violate the law.

Rocketsled sounds like you are aware and doing what you can to mitigate the issue of being overweight. However one wants to look at the established weights for a vehicle, they are there and binding.

I did not re read all the posts but I believe you said a different vehicle was not in your future for 10 years or something like that (been a while). If that's the case the scale needs to be your close friend and juggling ("stuff"/"load") a way of life. Good luck. It is a true PITA I can guarantee.
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