Cougar vs Premier vs Outback Ultra-Lite

[wiredgeorge]

For those hoping to illuminate the original poster, he hasn't been on since the 29th of last month. Enough poor information has been given in this thread that it would do well to just go away; like usual, some good stuff and a lot of bad. Wish Keystone would have the good sense to drop the "half ton towable" lies they put out. There might be a half ton out there with sufficient payload to pull many of these half ton towables safely but 95 percent do NOT.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

In your specific situation, a 26' Cougar TT (unknown model, weight, etc). and a different year Truck (means different towing capacity), the math showed it was NOT in the tow capacity.

However, as I stated, in my particular case - it was. Each specific truck has its own set of variables, based upon features, etc. A 2020 F-150 alone does not tell you the tow capacity, or payload of any particular truck.

I'm glad you found out about yours being over capacity.

In my case, it is well within the numbers. Rare I know, but it does happen.

I'd sure like to "see the numbers" on how your F-150 is within the tow ratings (payload, rear axle rating, max frontal area rating and gross combined weight rating while staying below the truck's gross weight rating.

Some "real world weights" to substantiate the generalities would go a long way toward giving us "old farts" and those "new to buying/towing a travel trailer" some specific insight into just how a 34' trailer can be towed by a truck with a 1600 pound payload and a frontal area maximum of 60 square feet.

I'm not saying, "your truck is overloaded"... What I'm saying is, "Can you show us the specifics on how you arrived at your conclusion"......

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Miloski

F-150's can tow trailers and this site shows you can. Go to https://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/ and look up your truck year and modal then run the numbers. Yes, you can run up to max weight, all commercial vehicles on the road do the same because their built that way and so is a pick-up truck. Most accidents are not from weight but speeding and unattentively driving. If you're new at pulling a trailer just do the speed limit, be attentive to the road conditions and how you and others drive, don't get cocky and you'll be ok. Most models have a similar site. Just to let you know we love our 1/2 ton Cougar and it runs a ton lighter then a normal modal.

Your "recommendations" will work, but only if you ignore the two RED disclaimers posted in the link you provided. Those disclaimers (posted in red by Ford, not me) state:

":MAXIMUM LOADED TRAILER WEIGHT (lbs.)
Towing capability will be reduced based on trim series, option content and payload. Prior to making final vehicle selection, reference the Towing Basics information on the last page of this Towing Guide. See dealer and reference “eSourceBook” Job Aid “Spec’ing F-Series Trucks for Towing”

"• Trailer tongue load weight should be 10% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue load weight and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR."

From the "Towing Basics" at the end of this brochure that are referenced by the bolded part of the RED Ford comment:

"The charts in this Guide show the minimum powertrain needed to achieve
an acceptable towing performance for the listed GCW of tow vehicle and trailer. Under certain conditions, however, (e.g., when the trailer has a large frontal area that adds substantial air drag or when trailering in hilly or mountainous terrain) it is wise to choose a vehicle with a higher rating."

"Your specific vehicle’s tow capability could be reduced based on weight of selected trim series and option content."

So, essentially, the "charts" provide for 14,000 pounds of towing capacity ONLY with a "properly equipped XL truck with only the options required to achieve the rating, with only a 150 pound driver and a single 150 pound passenger. Any options added to the truck or any upgrade in trim level will reduce the maximum towing capacity by "some figure, up to the actual weight of the upgrades"... Trick is: Trying to find how Ford established "some figure up to..."

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

Hello

We have a 2021 Cougar Half Ton 30RKDWE travel trailer. We currently pull it with a 2020 Ford F-150 3.5l Ecoboost short bed 4x2.

Thats a mouthful

The truck is more than capable to pull the trailer, and in our specific case, all the numbers are well within the manufacturers guidelines (both Ford and Cougar)

Now the trailer is 34 feet 9 inches long (coupler to bumper)

We currently utilize the equalizer hitch 14K system

We utilize this combination full time, and have no issues what so ever.

All that being said, in the next several months, we plan to get a new 2022 Ford F-350 Diesel 4x4 long bed truck. The biggest reason, is we want the 4x4. The platform of the 350 gives us the ability to tow just about anything out there, should we ever want anew RV (including fifth wheels).

The Cougar Half Ton travel trailers were designed to be towed by very specific 1/2 ton models, so be very careful when trying to match up the specs. So look at the specs on the door frame of the truck, and do the math.

If you plan on towing on dirt roads, beaches, or boon docking, get 4x4.

Good luck in your search

To quote another forum member, "at this time you don't know what you don't know!".
I'm willing to bet when you hook up to the 350 & tow a mile or 2 you'll notice very quickly that the 150 didn't "tow just fine".
Those "specific 1/2 ton models" mentioned are about as rare as hens teeth or unicorns.
Fortunately you're going to a 1 ton. The numbers you posted are most likely from truck/RV literature & nowhere near real world rv numbers.
A 10500 GVWR RV with a 750lb tongue weight, that's about 1/2 of the actual tongue weight.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

First I am not here to prove anything to anyone, and I am not going to get into a back and forth debate over this. People have come to their own conclusions, and decisions over safety.

That being said, lets get some of the numbers correct.

#1 - Max Loaded trailer weight = 10,500
#2 - GCWR = 15,900
#3 - Max payload = 3,230
#4 - tongue weight = 760

So there you have the numbers.

Keep in mind - I agree that not all 1/2 ton trucks can tow the same amount, and even if they could, as I stated, even for us, we are moving to a better/more robust platform (F-350) to provide options for towing other RV's should we decide to change RV's in the future (such as 5th wheels).

To "use your posted numbers"

Max loaded trailer weight = 10,500
GCWR = 15,900

Doing the math, that means if the trailer weighs 10,500 the truck can only weigh 5400 pounds. Now, if we "add your max payload of 3230, that puts the truck at 8630, so the GCWR of 15900 - 8630 puts the max trailer at 7270. That's 3230 pounds more than the GCWR if both the truck and trailer "are really at GVWR.

I don't know of any "properly equipped half ton truck" that weighs 5400 pounds when you put passengers and a hitch on it.

Doing a little more math:

Max trailer weight = 10,500
Tongue weight = 760

That puts the tongue weight at 7.23% of trailer weight.... I've never seen any RV (conventional or fifth wheel) with a tongue weight of 7%. Have you?

[markcee]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

First I am not here to prove anything to anyone, and I am not going to get into a back and forth debate over this. People have come to their own conclusions, and decisions over safety.

That being said, lets get some of the numbers correct.

#1 - Max Loaded trailer weight = 10,500
#2 - GCWR = 15,900
#3 - Max payload = 3,230
#4 - tongue weight = 760

So there you have the numbers.

Keep in mind - I agree that not all 1/2 ton trucks can tow the same amount, and even if they could, as I stated, even for us, we are moving to a better/more robust platform (F-350) to provide options for towing other RV's should we decide to change RV's in the future (such as 5th wheels).

I think moving to the 1-ton is a good move, because that is not your truck's payload capacity. What you're quoting is a sales brochure figure that applies to a stripped down XL, 4x2 supercab equipped with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP).

Look at your driver's side door panel at the Tire & Loading yellow/white sticker to find your specific payload capacity.

I had a 2019 max tow equipped F150, 3.5 EB in XLT trim. My sticker payload was 1873 pounds. I had trouble putting a couple chairs in the bed without busting payload.

[wiredgeorge]

I think many folks do desire to tow safely and are led astray by the unrealistic pin or tongue weights provided by all RV trailer manufacturers and the ridiculous exaggerations of the truck companies who pound "max towing in class" while keep the fine print really really hard to stumble upon.

When faced with this reality, the new RV owner is faced with a real dilema if they have a shiny new truck just purchased for their tow vehicle that most every option, diesel and 4x4 and has very little payload. The new owner either concedes there is a problem with payload or refers to truck manufacturer and rv manufacturer brochure numbers. This forum has witnessed this dilema dozens of time. And sadly the new owner is often upside down to the bank on both the truck and rv loans; by a lot.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

Anyway - We (Ford, myself, and Keystone) have all gone over the specific numbers, and are sure that they are well within the safety guidelines.

But if you want more clarification, please reach out to both Keystone customer support, and Ford. I am sure they can explain it much better than me.

Anyway, thank you for your concern, it is appreciated.

I would really like to know how you managed to get Ford/Keystone engineers and yourself on a conference call.....I need that connection! Going over your particular truck and trailer details with you comprehensively is quite a feat. More confusing, if you did do all that why do you only have brochure numbers to represent your findings?? You were asked a couple of times I believe to post your particular truck's payload sticker.....and no, I'm positive it is not the number from the Ford towing guide you used. It is a wise choice however that you are moving up in truck size.

[RLundin]

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing

Hey sourdough

You would be surprised how easy it is to get assistance from both Keystone, and Ford. BTW, it was not a 3 way conference call as you imply. That would have been interesting.

For the record, to make it very clear, we are not moving up to a 350 because of any issues in towing our RV, but rather, for other reasons, such as 4 wheel drive (4x4), as an example. Currently we have a 4x2, which is more than fine for highway work, but not very good for beaches or soft dirt roads, in general. If we had gotten the 4x4 version of the 150, and had the same towing capacity that we currently have, we would probably just stay with the 150. However, we decided to instead move up to a 350 so that we could potentially tow anything we consider over the next 10 years as far as an RV is considered. Also we are waiting for the 2022's because of a few new features that Ford will have in them as compared to 2021.

A 4x4 is a major consumer of available payload and you would have been even more over weight on your payload than you are now.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by ExtremeRVing View Post
"Hey sourdough

You would be surprised how easy it is to get assistance from both Keystone, and Ford. BTW, it was not a 3 way conference call as you imply. That would have been interesting.

For the record, to make it very clear, we are not moving up to a 350 because of any issues in towing our RV, but rather, for other reasons, such as 4 wheel drive (4x4), as an example. Currently we have a 4x2, which is more than fine for highway work, but not very good for beaches or soft dirt roads, in general. If we had gotten the 4x4 version of the 150, and had the same towing capacity that we currently have, we would probably just stay with the 150. However, we decided to instead move up to a 350 so that we could potentially tow anything we consider over the next 10 years as far as an RV is considered. Also we are waiting for the 2022's because of a few new features that Ford will have in them as compared to 2021."


Hmmmm, no I would not be surprised. Having worked on Fords, GMs, Rams etc. for decades, along with Keystone trailers, no...I'm surprised that you had such success accessing avenues of information that no one else has....please share....and, that payload sticker that's been requested multiple times.

[German Shepherd Guy]

Originally Posted by RLundin

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.

That looks like a really good floor plan AND a king bed. Nice choice

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RLundin

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I was mainly looking for feedback on trailer comparisons. I will be getting a new truck that supports what ever trailer I select. I "hope" to stay with a 1/2 ton, but will go up to 3/4 ton if necessary.

The Cougar that we seem to really like is the Cougar 22MLS that provides both theater seating and booth in a 26ft trailer. The layout is very similar to the Grand Design Imagine XLS 22MLE.

Now that your thread seems to be back on track, if the 22MLS is a floorplan that interests you, and if you're planning to dry camp with it, look closely at the tank storage capacity. There is only one gray water tank in that floorplan. What that means is a significantly reduced ability to use the 60 gallons of fresh water, because there's no place to store it when used.

There is a slightly increased gray capacity in the 22MLSWE (western edition) with 38 gallons of gray capacity over the 22MLS (eastern edition) which has 30 gallons. Eight gallons may not seem like much, but when dry camping, it could mean as much as an extra 25% storage capacity.

On the other hand, if you're planning to always use the trailer with full hookups, except for an occasional overnight, then gray tank storage capacity may not be as important. But, also consider that these days, many areas have many "water/electric sites" that may be available to reserve after all the full hookup sites are not available.... So, even when "intending to only use full hookup sites" sometimes that option is not an option.....

Maybe not a "deal breaker" but something to also consider...

[Miloski]

What the hell you scared for, you're at max or close to it and you'll luck they upgrade the 2019 hauling rate or you would be, but a nice truck. I drove a friends back for Arizona after he past away on a trip. You're not a bad ***, just another RV'r.

[P&DZ]

We ha e an older version of the current model 22RBSWE with a GVW of 7200lbs. We scale at about 6600lbs. We love the floor plan, great counter space and inside & outside storage and black/grey/fresh storage tanks. For the two of us it works well. Our 1/2 ton GMC has a payload of 1925lbs. I am sure a 3/4 ton would tow it better but the 1/2 ton is adequate with margin even in the Colorado Rockies. Don’t rule out a used TT, although well kept used ones may be difficult to find.

[Balvar24]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

A 4x4 is a major consumer of available payload and you would have been even more over weight on your payload than you are now.

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Balvar24

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.

Go by the sticker on the door, not the brochure/manual, they will be optimistic and misleading....on purpose.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by Balvar24

I thought the same thing, but for some wheel base/engine combinations it's not the case if you're going by the Ford tow manual. The differences aren't much.

Danny is right... go by payload sticker. My comment was general. Take a 3/4 ton diesel crew cab long wheelbase 4x4 and compare it to a 4x2 equipped otherwise identically. The 4x4 front axle weighs a good deal more and thus a 4x4 option decreases payload from the identical 4x2. If you look at charts, hopefully you are looking at identically equipped models of the same truck with the exception of 4x4 vs 4x2.

[jxnbbl]

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by jxnbbl

Out of curiosity RE: payload stickers...


Our RAM 2500 Cummins diesel has some obscene "towing capacity", but as stated here the payload is only something like 2100 on the sticker. (engine plays a part here) It was the main reason we didn't get a small 5th wheel this month. I think the only one that would make the grade was a Grand Design 27 footer.



Anyways "due to availability" when we bought the truck it came with the factory option of a 5th wheel hitch. So the question....is that hitch built into the sticker payload calculation?

If it came from the factory then yes.