110 heat tape on water lines under coroplast?

[JRTJH]

Archergodwin,

I'd suspect that someone who already knows how to install a heat tape, or someone who is intimately familiar with plumbing AND "RV underbelly construction/layout" likely wouldn't need instructions on this or any other forum beyond the "spurious suggestion stage" In other words, once they get the idea from reading the forum, they use their "current knowledge to plan, procure and implement the idea, making it a reality" (with correct installation).

My concern is not whether a member with "that skillset" can properly install a heat tape. My concern is with the member that hasn't yet learned how to winterize his RV, has owned it for 3 months and finally found the gray tank dump valve last trip out. With no idea of what's in the "underbelly" and armed with a box cutter, a roll of Gorilla tape and two 6' heat tapes, starts cutting their coroplast without planning where the heat tape power cords will exit the confined space above the coroplast. Once the cut is made, they realize there's no cold or hot water PEX where they cut........ OOPS....

Those are the people who join this and many other forums, to learn the basics and to improve their RV. Making the assumption that everyone has your background and is capable of visualizing and implementing a modification that, if implemented incorrectly could damage their RV more than it improves it is the reason for my repeated concerns and why I keep "adding the caution" to threads that can easily get a novice in trouble.

Trailer Life has solved their problem (as have most of the automotive "how to" magazines) by including a "star system" to depict "difficulty level" in the articles they publish in their magazines. One star for things almost anybody can do and 5 stars for the projects that require "a set of diesel tools" (to use your comments)....

How to implement such a "difficulty rating system" on this or any other forum is something I don't have the expertise to implement. If left to the OP of the thread, a mechanic would post a difficulty much different than a banker or a computer engineer, so whose "skill set" do you use and how do you make it a uniform, objective, understood by all "difficulty star rating" ???

I agree with you, most people who can "walk and chew bubblegum at the same time" should be OK with making their own decisions about their abilities to do a task.... I don't think you or I are concerned about those people.

That said, we have people buying half ton trucks to tow their 38' travel trailer every day, joining the forum to ask "Will my rig be OK?" just as we have people join every day asking, "Where's my water pump?"

So, For me, there's no easy answer to your questions or easy solution to your comments... Do you have a solution ????

[flybouy]

To John's point when I started reading the "the heat tape remedy" this is what I envisioned : someone reads the suggestion, they go to Home Depot and purchase the cheapest heat tape they have. Go to camper, rip open the bag and throw it away without reading it. Get a steak knife and tear open the coroplast and "loosely" wrap the pipe and plus it into a 16 gauge lamp cord extension and plus it into the outlet on the side of the camper.
There's no way to "test" a person's skill set's or knowledge without asking a lot of questions. Seems to me when you start asking questions many people get sensitive and become defensive thinking that you are "challenging" them.
In my opinion the only alternative is to approach the discussion from a perspective that the audience "may not" know that a flat blade screwdriver should not be used as a pry bar, a gasket scraper, or a chisel.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by flybouy

To John's point when I started reading the "the heat tape remedy" this is what I envisioned : someone reads the suggestion, they go to Home Depot and purchase the cheapest heat tape they have. Go to camper, rip open the bag and throw it away without reading it. Get a steak knife and tear open the coroplast and "loosely" wrap the pipe and plus it into a 16 gauge lamp cord extension and plus it into the outlet on the side of the camper.
There's no way to "test" a person's skill set's or knowledge without asking a lot of questions. Seems to me when you start asking questions many people get sensitive and become defensive thinking that you are "challenging" them.
In my opinion the only alternative is to approach the discussion from a perspective that the audience "may not" know that a flat blade screwdriver should not be used as a pry bar, a gasket scraper, or a chisel.

^^^^^ NOW you tell me!!

[cvin]

all good points guys, i might not have thought about the heat tape not reading the temp as well far from where the lines go through the frame

at this point i am moving away from the heat tape simply because i agree it is built for houses that are not driving around the roads, and if it gets out of position etc wont be doing the job anyway

do not want anything that requires me to check on it by removing the coroplast once a year etc and feel the heat tape would be better off checking it

i did see that heartland on some of their 4 season trailers have 12 volt heat tape on the lines in addition to their tank heaters

planning to add some more insulation to the bottom of the camper and maybe another duct feeding heat down there
my camper is flat on the bottom and no side slides

i have been under it several times and am familiar with where the lines are, how it is set up etc

that being said it wont be a rush job, planning to take it south in a week and we can pull the coroplast and adjust the job accordingly as we go
my coroplast is already cut in 2 places with extra braces there and that makes it easier to do all this

the furnace seems to have had one blip.... and has worked every nite since?????
- my plan is to be in it every nite until it heads south so i can monitor it

also the tattletale alarm will alert me if the trailer drops below 58 inside

on a side note the back bed slide has always been a little drafty, have done some mods and it is much better but did a quick search on that last nite and found several people on the outback forum referencing stay in these campers in the low teens and being fine, was surprised at that but good to hear

thanks for all the info on this

[flybouy]

Danny, that should have read: "may not" know that MY flat blade screwdriver should not be used as a pry bar, a gasket scraper, or a chisel.
You can do want you want with yours.

[Archergodwin]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

....So, For me, there's no easy answer to your questions or easy solution to your comments... Do you have a solution ????

I surely don't John. Wish I did, I'd probably use it at work

I have wondered about the possibility of 'making it appear too easy', but I wouldn't expect many people to tackle the upgrades I've done to our coach. I sure as heck would hope people can recognize their own lack of knowledge or skill before starting something, and if they know that... then ask for help from the forum members.

What might be difficult on one rig to do, might be easy on another. The only rating system, would be one's own judgement on how difficult it was for them... and unfortunately would not transfer from one task to another.

I have often generated a 'weighted' set of parameters based on difficulty, skills required, part set or tools needed. Something like that might work here.

I appreciate the forum. I appreciate the sharing of knowledge, and to post a project - for me - is giving back to the knowledge base.

Cheers!

[jbrosecity]

Originally Posted by Archergodwin

It is my opinion, from what I've seen... that the whole 'four seasons', 'arctic' or whatever their marketing wants to call it - package, is just that - a marketing ploy. If you do buy, make them put in writing what they guarantee the lowest temperature the rig is rated to.... dollars to donuts, they will not put anything in writing.. nothing. I think most are only guaranteed down to 32deg, when you get into the fine print, regardless of what the 'package' name is.

Ditto - I called Keystone and emailed them... both... and asked about their "Polar Pack" - I told them the brochure clearly says the Avalanche is equipped with:
-----------------------
-4* F rating with R-28 equivalent roof, R-37 equivalent floor and R-10 wall insulation
Polar Pack All Season Protection: Exclusive all season Polar Pack protection allows you to camp in nearly any condition. Rated and tested to -4*F without water lines or tanks freezing
-----------------------
fuggedaboutit - it is indeed a marketing ploy... "Owner Relations" told me:
>There are no guarantees that there will not be freezing past
>32 degrees Fahrenheit, which is the point when water freezes.

and I even threatened them with false advertising when they told me this to no avail. Totally dishonest.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by cvin

all good points guys, i might not have thought about the heat tape not reading the temp as well far from where the lines go through the frame

at this point i am moving away from the heat tape simply because i agree it is built for houses that are not driving around the roads, and if it gets out of position etc wont be doing the job anyway

do not want anything that requires me to check on it by removing the coroplast once a year etc and feel the heat tape would be better off checking it

i did see that heartland on some of their 4 season trailers have 12 volt heat tape on the lines in addition to their tank heaters

planning to add some more insulation to the bottom of the camper and maybe another duct feeding heat down there
my camper is flat on the bottom and no side slides

i have been under it several times and am familiar with where the lines are, how it is set up etc

that being said it wont be a rush job, planning to take it south in a week and we can pull the coroplast and adjust the job accordingly as we go
my coroplast is already cut in 2 places with extra braces there and that makes it easier to do all this

the furnace seems to have had one blip.... and has worked every nite since?????
- my plan is to be in it every nite until it heads south so i can monitor it

also the tattletale alarm will alert me if the trailer drops below 58 inside

on a side note the back bed slide has always been a little drafty, have done some mods and it is much better but did a quick search on that last nite and found several people on the outback forum referencing stay in these campers in the low teens and being fine, was surprised at that but good to hear

thanks for all the info on this

I assume the simple improvement of ducting the furnace into the belly has been done.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by jbrosecity

Ditto - I called Keystone and emailed them... both... and asked about their "Polar Pack" - I told them the brochure clearly says the Avalanche is equipped with:
-----------------------
-4* F rating with R-28 equivalent roof, R-37 equivalent floor and R-10 wall insulation
Polar Pack All Season Protection: Exclusive all season Polar Pack protection allows you to camp in nearly any condition. Rated and tested to -4*F without water lines or tanks freezing
-----------------------
fuggedaboutit - it is indeed a marketing ploy... "Owner Relations" told me:
>There are no guarantees that there will not be freezing past
>32 degrees Fahrenheit, which is the point when water freezes.

and I even threatened them with false advertising when they told me this to no avail. Totally dishonest.

My 2018 Montana is advertised as 0 degree capable (I assume that's F). Where I live now (Vancouver Island) it never gets below 14F (-10C) and rarely sees 23F (-5C). Although we do deal with those temperatures, we do use heated water hoses, one 1500 Watt heater in the basement, a 50 watt light in the water controls area, 2 50 watt lights in the front (generator that we don't have) compartment to keep the 2 soon to be 4 T105's a little warmer than ambient. All the lights, heater and heated hose are plugged into 2 temperature controlled outlets, on at 35F(2C) off at 45F(7C). We leave the grays open only because we get so few days of freezing temperatures and seldom for the whole day, otherwise I would just close the valves for a few days and then drain all tanks at once on a warmer day at noonish. Our trailer came with heat pads on the tanks (but not the heat wrap on the entrance/exit pipes) and the furnace ducted into the belly and basement areas. I also dropped the coroplast and replaced it with an equivalent material but added the foil bubble insulation and refastened it to the exterior rails instead of the interior. Ugly but less chance of puncturing a water/hydraulic line or electrical wire. If you are plugged in, a couple of well placed 1500 watt thermostatically controlled heaters should be a big help.

[cvin]

Yes already ducted the heat into the belly

Thinking the 5th wheels have more access to basement stuff than these travel trailers, mine will be moving around so putting a heater or lights etc above the coroplast wont work

Hoping more insulation will help the underbelly stay warmer, but need to get the coroplast down and see how much room i have to work with

[sonofcy]

I just bought new coroplast, used spray on adhesive and stuck on the bubble wrap insulation. Doesn't add much but every little bit helps.

[JRTJH]

Something few consider is the coroplast itself. It is 3/16" thick (typically) and is essentially a bunch of rows of square plastic tubes placed side by side... What that means is this: If you seal the ends of the coroplast, you effectively make each tube a 'dead air space'... If sealed properly on a warm dry day, you're "more or less, creating a vacuum bottle" in each of those small square tubes. That will help "somewhat" with insulating the underbelly. While not an "answer to frozen pipes" by itself, as stated "every bit helps"... Mylar lined bubble wrap, dead air spaces in the coroplast, ducted heat into the underbelly, sealing all visible holes in the frame rails, not "shortening the meandering heat duct runs to get all the air into the main cabin, etc... They all contribute to providing retained heat in the underbelly, the objective of which is to prevent cold soak in that area. Every bit helps....

[Archergodwin]

One of the things I did after seeing how the furnace was installed, is box the furnace in so it was only pulling cold air from inside the living area.

Things were really dusty all the time. The other side affect of boxing the furnace in to pull cold air only from the living area, is it stopped pulling cold air up through every orifice and crack in the coroplast belly, of which we know there are a bunch.

I had to replace the furnace in my 2006 Forest River 36RK, (another note on that) and I didn't see the obvious 'non ducted' path for the cold air. Definitely the case on this Fuzion though.

As for the FR furnace.. ha... when I pulled the old one out, I saw that the ducting the furnace was to mate with, was mismatched by probably 30%.. meaning the duct was 30% occluded by the furnace flange.

[hookd]

In my former life I was a sales rep for Raychem (now Pentair) heat tape systems. Their tape is "self regulating" by having a semi conductor the entire length of the tape between the two conductors. It only creates heat when the semi conductor reaches a low enough temperature to conduct, as the temps fall the more heat is created as they rise it creates less. This design keeps you from having hot spots and is energy efficient since it only conducts when needed. The stuff isn't cheap but it does have a 10 and some a 20 year warranty. Something to look into if your thinking heat tape, most WESCO branches are distributors and the stuff is even made in the USA.

[cvin]

so right now the camper has just the regular coroplast and one heat duct split and pumping heat down right next to the fresh tank and its lines
and a 110 heat pad on the fresh tank


last nite we were supposed to hit 15 but really think it did not get lower than 19-20
but the high today is 32 and last i checked it was only 31 at 1pm

as long as i keep the trailer at 63 while gone during the day and run the thermostat up to 75 at nite- so it basically runs most of the nite- it is not freezing any lines at nite

my mistake a week ago was not having the heat on while i was gone and the lines getting too cold before i got home at nite

tonite will be a big test , we hit 12 tonite
luckily after this it is mostly 28-32 the rest of the time i am here

have all the doors on the cabinets open at nite and very thick felt overall the windows and the rear bed slide windows are insulated with the plastic and reflective on them

the camper is plenty toasty in here at nite, although am keeping the thermostat high for the water lines, not me
that being said i do not like cold at all and am very comfortable , the trailer is not drafty etc

obviously am burning a decent amount of propane and this would not do if i was staying all winter

but have to say i am impressed it is able to manage at all

still want to do some insulation , at the least the foil on the coroplast

will update this tomorrow after a 12 degree nite

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by jbrosecity

Ditto - I called Keystone and emailed them... both... and asked about their "Polar Pack" - I told them the brochure clearly says the Avalanche is equipped with:
-----------------------
-4* F rating with R-28 equivalent roof, R-37 equivalent floor and R-10 wall insulation
Polar Pack All Season Protection: Exclusive all season Polar Pack protection allows you to camp in nearly any condition. Rated and tested to -4*F without water lines or tanks freezing
-----------------------
fuggedaboutit - it is indeed a marketing ploy... "Owner Relations" told me:
>There are no guarantees that there will not be freezing past
>32 degrees Fahrenheit, which is the point when water freezes.

and I even threatened them with false advertising when they told me this to no avail. Totally dishonest.

I find these ratings kind of strange considering there is little room for any insulation. I know that my roof and rear of my trailer has a small amount of pink stuff that may be fiberglass. Just don't see a 1 1/2" void providing R28 insulating factor... can someone explain? The R37 floor? R10 walls?

Oh yeah, I have seen several full timers with a pleather looking curtain around the bottom of their 5vers to keep the wind out. Must put snaps on their trailer and snap it in place? This might be a good idea for riding out a winter's worth of cold wind.

[cvin]

wrote a long reply and the wifi dropped and lost it , grrrrr

anyway trailer seems to be doing fine in 18-20 degrees with the heater vent down there and heat pad on the fresh water tank

we had one night that dropped to almost zero and it did not handle that, but unfroze very quickly which makes me think it is just freezing where the pipes go through the frame...

will insulate the pipes there and add more insulation to the bottom and see how it does next fall...

if i was going to keep this trailer would probably invest in a snap on type skirt but plan to sell it in 1-2 years

[chuckster57]

Good deal! Thanks for the update, hope all goes well for the winter.