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Old 01-28-2022, 10:32 AM   #1
MotoDad293
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Raptor Leveling Jacks and Auto-Reset Breaker

Good Day all. I am having an issue that I think I may need some 3rd party confirmation or alternative ideas.

Trailer is a 2021 Raptor 351. I have owned it for since late Nov of 2020. I have roughly 28k miles towing it all over the west coast. I usually use it for 3-4 day trips 2-3 times a month.

I have had many minor issues with it as most experience with brand new RVs that actually get moved around a lot. At first I leveraged my local dealer but they ultimately became super busy and started doing appointments 6 month out. So once that became an issue, being very mechanical, I started doing my own repairs and upgrades. Occassionally bringing in a mobile RV tech to do repairs that were beyond me. Like Norcold refer fans install and fixing broke slides (nuts keep coming off the cables).

My latest issue, seems no one knows whats up or wants to help fix. So I am going to tackle this one on my own.

BTW, Keystone tech support has sucked and everytime I call they say they will not share info with me and that if I proceed they will void my warranty. Whatever....

So on to my last lingering problem... Around late summer, early fall 2021, I started developing an issue with my 6 point Lippert leveling jacks.

When lowering jacks, I get a slight clicking noise. Using my google-foo as well as this forum and FB Raptor group, I bought the CAT Hydraulic Oil Additive. Pulled about a quart of the hydro oil out and put about a quart of the additive in. That helped but was not the end fix, I still have a slight click.. No biggie, I can live with that as long as the click is not causing more damage to the system.

The major problem I have is when retracting the jacks. No matter if it is retracting the rear jacks or the front jacks. I do everything in manual mode because of this issues. If I am manually retracting say the rear jacks, they will suddenly stop and I will lose my whole 12v power to the coach. Then a few seconds later, an electronic click is heard and 12v power to the coach is restored and I can continue to retract the jacks for a few seconds until the power is lost again. It will do this 4-6 times just on the retracting the rear jacks alone.

When power is lost, I loose 12v power to everything inside and out of the coach EXCEPT, the jack's control panel! I do lose power to hydraulic pump, just not the control panel.

I found that coming off the battery is a small auto-reset circuit breaker (with a red cap) is tripping. On the load side of this circuit breaker is all of the 12v load and another identical auto-reset circuit breaker. I confirmed the CB closest to the battery is tripping when operating the jacks. It is right above the lippert control panel. So I put on hand on the CB and control the jacks with the other hand. I can feel the pop and reset. The resets have become slower and slower as the temperature drops. This has become quite frustrating.

In my searching, it appears this auto-reset circuit breaker is rated at 50amps DC but when looking at it, it visibly appears too small to support 50amps. I have also read these are junk and go bad over time.... I can't remember if it was here or the FB group, someone mentioned a similar problem and the recommended solution was an 80 amp MANUAL reset circuit breaker. So on a whim, I purchased the exact one noted via amazon in December. This one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am planning to swap it out this weekend. But.. in talking with some of my RV buddies. They question a lot about this one. Especially putting an 80am breaker in to replace a 50 amp breaker. On the 50 amp breaker there are a few power leads and another 50 amp auto-reset breaker daisy chained to it. So my logic says I need a larger breaker in front of the 2nd 50amp breaker that I have no problems with. They are not quite as accepting that that the 50amp breaker that is tripping is junk, though I buy into that theory.

One of my concerns is, what if it trips the 80amp breaker. What is my follow-up troubleshooting. Could this really be a disguised ground problem. I did initially have a ground issue with my auto-transfer switches. I fixed that and this problem started months after that was resolved.

I am curious if anyone on here has experience with this issue.

Thank you for reading through my story!
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Old 01-28-2022, 10:53 AM   #2
ChuckS
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With the 80 amp breaker installed it won't trip anymore... However.. if it does then you need to look at the cable connections to that new breaker, up to the dual polarity solenoid and the motor leads...

Lippert has had a TI Bulletin out for a long time and have even revised the TI... The issue is the RV Builder.. KEYSTONE.. continues to install the cheapest bargain bin 50 amp auto reset or manual reset breaker ever made and they must have a freight boat load of them...

Lippert's after market install manual even states USE 80 amp breaker for the power feed to the solenoid...

Lippert TI Link:

https://lci-support-doc.s3.amazonaws...cd-0001896.pdf

Lippert After Market install manual for 6 point Hyd level up system:
https://lci-support-doc.s3.amazonaws...cd-0001533.pdf
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Old 01-28-2022, 10:56 AM   #3
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PDF I wrote on upgrading the OEM 50 amp breaker to 80 amp.. the ONLY breaker that needs replacing is the ONE that feeds 12 volts up to the dual polarity solenoid.... period
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Hydraulic pump OEM 50 Amp Breaker Upgrade (Rev1.0).pdf (1.06 MB, 144 views)
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Old 01-28-2022, 11:12 AM   #4
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A comment regarding your statement about how "great" Keystone's customer service has been.....

Lippert builds your leveling system, they support it as well. All Keystone does is "bolt it onto the trailer" and the girls in the Keystone Customer Support know a tiny bit about which bolts they use. They know virtually NOTHING about the workings of the Lippert leveling system other than what's in the Keystone Owner's Manual... To be fair, they are experts in processing a warranty claim on the Lippert system, but that's about the extent of their expertise....

If you want "knowledgeable, credible customer support for your Lippert Leveling system, give Lippert's Customer Support a call and see if they're better able to give you answers to your issues...

Lippert's website: https://www.lci1.com/

Lippert's CS Department: 432-547-7378 or [email protected]

I'd bet money you'll get better "support service" from LCI than from Keystone when it comes to your LCI equipment.
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Old 01-28-2022, 11:30 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
With the 80 amp breaker installed it won't trip anymore...
Thank you Chuck!! Looks like you have confirmed my plan of action.

I had previously traced the wire from the hydro solenoid to that 1st auto-reset circuit breaker. I believe this was also mentioned in wherever I found out about the 80 circuit breaker.

Based on the fact you and LCI had to write documents on this, it must be more common then I first thought. Wonder why both the mobile RV repair techs I discussed this with had no ideas and said they were going to start with the basic troubleshooting.

I will get this swapped either this afternoon or Sunday and report back.

Boggles my mind why Keystone would daisy chain circuit breakers. Same rated breakers no less. I am thinking of putting a + side bus bar in then run independent feeds to each circuit breaker. That way when a breaker pops, only the items on that breaker are affected. Is this a bad idea.

THANK YOU!!
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Old 01-28-2022, 11:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
A comment regarding your statement about how "great" Keystone's customer service has been.....

Lippert builds your leveling system, they support it as well. <snip>

I'd bet money you'll get better "support service" from LCI than from Keystone when it comes to your LCI equipment.
In all fairness, I did not call Keystone (or LCI) on this particular issue. I was already fed-up with Keystone customer service by the time of this problem.

I did, probably incorrectly, assume that Lippert/LCI would just point me back to Keystone or a dealer service department.

When I previously called Keystone, asking for a wiring schematic of my trailer, I got chastised by the gal in customer service. Threatened with voiding my warranty, etc.... Another time I called with a problem with the refrigerator, all they would say is take it to a Keystone dealer.

Ultimately, I successfully rewired the outlets I wanted off the inverter, fixed the manufacturing created ground issue at the auto transfer switch, installed 3 LiPo batteries and replaced the converter with Progressive Dyn 80amp LiPo model. I had a mobile RV guy fix the slide and fridge though.
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Old 01-28-2022, 12:44 PM   #7
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The next time you get "stumped" and if you can find an LCI sticker on the part, give Lippert Customer Service a call. I think you'll find the conversation to be "refreshingly different" from the "scripted, attorney blessed Keystone CS responses".....

If it's a Lippert product, warranty expired or brand new, I've never had a "damn this call was a waste of time" moment with LCI CS.
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Old 01-28-2022, 12:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
The next time you get "stumped" and if you can find an LCI sticker on the part, give Lippert Customer Service a call. I think you'll find the conversation to be "refreshingly different" from the "scripted, attorney blessed Keystone CS responses".....

If it's a Lippert product, warranty expired or brand new, I've never had a "damn this call was a waste of time" moment with LCI CS.
Lippert tech support is simply the best. I talked to them last month about a 2000 fifth wheel that had power gear slide outs. They sent me lots of information and even emailed me back after asking someone else about the location of the controllers. Found them before the email but it’s refreshing to know some people still go the extra mile.
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Old 01-28-2022, 02:32 PM   #9
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Great to know! Will definitely call Lippert if I have any questions on their products.
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Old 01-28-2022, 04:15 PM   #10
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As new as your rig is, it should have #4 strand copper cables to and from that problem breaker. If that is the size cable, you will not have any issues with installing that 80 amp breaker, except you will need to enlarge the holes on the ring connectors so they will fit the larger posts on the new breaker. I upgraded our breaker back in 2013 when Lippert first issued a fix for the problem, and haven't had any problem since.
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Old 01-28-2022, 06:37 PM   #11
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The entire upgrade on your circuit breaker should take maybe 15 minutes at best.. the other breaker is paralleled to the one you are replacing with its source lead so that’s why only the one needs replaced .. you aren’t drawing current thru the other one

Regarding Lippert Tech Support. I’ve dealt with them several times asking for information and such.. each time I had stellar results with the support Tech I spoke with or on line chatted with..

And YES. The Saga with the lousy 50 amp resettable breaker that the OEM builders insist on continuing to use is still ongoing..l with the exception of Grand Design RVs..

They are installing 80 amp breakers at the factory and have a much better BUS bar strap concept than others I’ve seen..
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Old 01-30-2022, 05:41 PM   #12
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Done! Swapped the 50 amp auto reset breaker with the 80 amp manual breaker. I connected the trailer. Retracted all of the jacks, manually leveled, retracted and then auto leveled. No hiccips.

I did have to split and open the eyelets to fit the posts of the breaker.

Here is the 50amp breaker removed.
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There is the 80amp breaker installed. Note the red wire along the frame, that is the one that goes to dual solenoid of the jacks.
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Thank you for the advice and confirmation.
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