Need some winterizing help

msp2jxr · 10-17-2011, 05:45 AM

My 2012 Cougar MKS 326 did not come with a by pass to suck up the antifreeze from the bottle using the pump. I went to Menard's and bought the needed supplies. Some hose and a quarter turn valve and a barbed T to splice in on the suctions side of the pump. I drilled a hole trough the wall so I could just pull the hose out with the valve. Problem is I can't get the pump to suck up the antifreeze... I finally just used a hand pump through the city water side to winterize the trailer. Now I am wondering if I did something so the pump won't pump from water tank either. I added more hose to it briefly so I could raise the height and pour the antifreeze into the hose and have it prime the pump but that didn't seem to get it started either. Any ideas of what I did wrong. I used the 1/2 ID hose with 3/4 OD.... which was the same size hose as the intake side of the pump. Does it need to be smaller? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I'm at a loss here... Jay MN

SteveC7010 · 10-17-2011, 05:49 AM

It has to be a two way valve, not a plain tee.

Flip the valve one way and the liquid flows from the tank to the pump, blocking the antifreeze siphon line side. Flip it the other way, and the siphon is opened and the water tank line is blocked.

If both the fresh water and antifreeze ports are open, the pump will pick the path of least resistance and just suck air.

byrdr1 · 10-17-2011, 07:52 AM

See my webshots for what I had to do to my 327RES
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/581454788WXENJk
This page has 2 of my mods and one is the water pump conversion mod.
I will update ?weekly? until I cant anymore.
randy

msp2jxr · 10-17-2011, 09:53 AM

I will put a valve in its place and run more hose through the ceiling and out with the valve on the outside. That way I won't have to remove the panel every time. Thanks again... This was really starting to bug me.

Outbackmel · 10-17-2011, 10:23 AM

For those of us who are mechanically challenged

this forum continues to add value.

Keep those ideas and solutions coming!

MILBY · 10-20-2011, 12:58 PM

I just went to my dealer and bought the fitting that goes directly on the pump for .79. Just undo the suction line from the tank and put this fitting on with a couple of feet of tygon tubeing and it is all done for about 2 bucks, I did not see any reason to get real fancy with it.

mike9661 · 10-20-2011, 01:40 PM

Did the same as MILBY.

W5WI · 10-20-2011, 04:11 PM

I've got about two more trips to the Trout State Parks here in Missouri and then I'll winterize my 326. I have also thought of adding the valve to pump the antifreeze from the water pump area.

But, I'm having some second thoughts... In reading the Keystone manual they recommend adding antifreeze to the fresh water tank to a level just above the waterpump pickup and pumping the antifreeze through the entire system. By doing this you will also put antifreeze in the line from the tank to the pump. Seems reasonable to me as I would like to protect the entire fresh water system.

Another great tidbit I picked up was to use the winter windshield washer fluid in the drain traps and grey, black and kitchen waste tanks. The windshield washer fluid is way less expensive than the RV antifreeze.

Cheers,

dale

TAScarbee · 10-20-2011, 04:18 PM

How much of the windshield washer fluid did they suggest you use?

Festus2 · 10-20-2011, 04:23 PM

In winterizing our RV's over the years, I have never put RV antifreeze into the fresh water tank and have not had any frozen water lines or pump problems as a result. To me, it seems like an unnecessary waste and expense of RV antifreeze. Either one of the methods described above using a bypass kit or by disconnecting the intake on the pump both work well.

SteveC7010 · 10-20-2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Festus2

In winterizing our RV's over the years, I have never put RV antifreeze into the fresh water tank and have not had any frozen water line or pump problems as a result. To me, it seems like an unnecessary waste and expense of RV antifreeze. Either one of the methods described above using a bypass kit or by disconnecting the intake on the pump both work well.

Have to agree on this. I never liked the hassle of flushing the fresh tank after it had the pink stuff in it anyway. The tank is made of a different plastic material than the rest of the system which is mostly PEX these days, and that tank material seems hold the antifreeze taste and odor longer than PEX even with a good flush in the spring.

On my last trailer the line from the tank to the pump was about 18" long. When I disconnected it from the pump, I was able to raise it up about 3" and it would totally drain back into the tank and out the drain.

The only time ice busts up RV water system parts is when it is in places where the expansion as it freezes has no where to go. Even if I didn't bother to drain that hose, freezing would not damage it as it was open at both ends and it was the braided flex hose. No need to winterize it or worry about it.

Our new Cougar has about a 20' feed line from the fresh water tank to the pump. Big difference, of course, but I still don't want the hassle of pouring pink in the tank and then pumping into the rest of the system. It would easily require at least 2 additional gallons to do the job.

When I installed the valve for the winterizing kit, I attached a fitting to the feed line that would connect to the air compressor and blew the line out. Any water in it was pushed back into the fresh water tank and out through the low point drain.

**JRTJH** · 10-20-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAScarbee

How much of the windshield washer fluid did they suggest you use?

The blue windshield washer fluid has methyl alcohol in it (at least the blue stuff I buy) and is flammable. That means if you pour it into your drains, it will evaporate, the water in the drains will remain and you'll have less protection as the winter progresses. Additionally, since it's flammable, don't smoke, don't light pilot lights, don't turn on the refrigerator, etc......

Actually, if you pump the "pink stuff" (propylene glycol) through the faucets, there should be enough sputtering and spitting before you get a steady stream to fill the drain traps and, for the most part, it doesn't evaporate and is not flammable...

As for expense, The blue stuff is $1.99/gal and the antifreeze is $2.99 a gallon. Not enough difference for me to consider the hazards as "worth the savings"

MILBY · 10-21-2011, 12:50 PM

I always buy 4 Gallons of antifreeze do the waterlines then pour the rest down the drains, enough to get to the tanks. For 10 bucks seems like cheap insurance. Also and I posted this on another thread do not forget about the black tank flush lines. My last one a couple of years ago I forgot about this and it ruined the vacuum breaker under the bathroom sink. It's a pain to change.

W5WI · 10-22-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAScarbee

How much of the windshield washer fluid did they suggest you use?

They are suggesting a gallon per holding tank. I think the kitchen tank would require a bit less as it's a smaller capacity. I don't believe in cold or cooler weather that the antifreeze in winter washer fluid would evaporate. if it did the windshield washer tank and lines would freeze in our cars and trucks... I buy my winter windshield washer fluid at Walmart for $1.27 or less a gallon. The RV antifreeze costs $3.99 and up per gallon. That is quite a large savings to me...

**JRTJH** · 10-22-2011, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W5WI

They are suggesting a gallon per holding tank. I think the kitchen tank would require a bit less as it's a smaller capacity. I don't believe in cold or cooler weather that the antifreeze in winter washer fluid would evaporate. if it did the windshield washer tank and lines would freeze in our cars and trucks... I buy my winter windshield washer fluid at Walmart for $1.27 or less a gallon. The RV antifreeze costs $3.99 and up per gallon. That is quite a large savings to me...

A couple of considerations you may include in your winterization scheme: The size of the holding tank is not relavent to freezing. When empty, the only water "remaining" is the small amount that is below the drain and that won't drain out. It matters not if the tank is 25 gallons or 250 gallons, what you need to protect is the bottom of the tank, usually on one end or one corner where the 1/2 gallon of water remains. That water is below the drain pipe and won't come out the dump valves. Actually, as long as the water is "open" in the tank, even if it freezes, it won't do any damage (and certainly less damage than alcohol would do) Freeze damage done by water is caused when the water expands and puts pressure on the surfaces of the container in which the ice forms. An open, flat tank would not suffer nearly the potential for damage as would a pipe or a closed valve in a toilet or faucet. I've found throughout the years that the antifreeze that makes its way through the faucets (run them until they run clear without bubbles) will fill the drains and protect the gray tank. I flush about 1/2 gallon down the toilet then pour another cup above the toilet seal. That puts about half a gallon in each holding tank and all the drain traps are full. I do this with 3 gallons of the "pink stuff" That costs $8.97 before taxes, a very VERY inexpensive price to pay for protecting a multithousand dollar investment.

Alcohol evaporates from any "OPEN" container, the reason it doesn't evaporate from your auto/truck holding container is the cap that keeps condensate in. Open drains in RV's and holding tanks are not closed and there is no way to retain the condensate as the alcohol evaporates, additionally, methyl alcohol is not safe for the seals in the drain system. If you pour alcohol in your holding tanks, cover your trailer with any type of cover, the alcohol potentially can evaporate and escape out the tank vents on top of the trailer, there the alcohol could condense and damage your rubber (EPDM) roof membrane.

Alcohol is flammable. Please read the label on YOUR jug of windshield washer fluid. If you feel comfortable pouring flammable liquid down your drain, then go ahead, but please keep your fire extinguisher handy...

As for the price of RV antifreeze. You can buy a 6 pack of gallon containers at ACE hardware for $17.94, Thats $2.99 a gallon and they have a rebate of $1 a gallon on up to 3, so actually, you can get the "right stuff" for $2.49 a gallon (through the end of October). For that price, is it really worth it to take the "cheap route", possibly damage your seals, risk a fire and maybe not have enough antifreeze in your system when the cold really gets here?

If you're happy saving $1.22, (the cost difference in one gallon of RV Pink stuff to pour in your drains vs one gallon of blue windshield washer fluid) then, by all means, save the money, but for me, the risk of using something completely out of the "design element" to protect my RV investment is just not worth a buck twenty two.

RCrawler · 10-22-2011, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W5WI

I buy my winter windshield washer fluid at Walmart for $1.27 or less a gallon. The RV antifreeze costs $3.99 and up per gallon. That is quite a large savings to me...

You own a $30K+ RV and you think that $5 a year savings is quite large?

Find that $5 to save elsewhere and do it right with the correct antifreeze. I just winterized mine today. With 30+ feet to travel and two bathrooms, it took 3 gallons. And had plenty left over to pour down all of the drains and toilets to protect the traps and lube the seals.

Jason

cumminsdad08 · 10-23-2011, 04:01 AM

k mart had theres on sale last week for a little over 2 bucks. i picked up a couple of gallons ahead of time. so it may be better to save your 5 bucks by purchasing your products ahead of time and taking up some shelf space in the garage. but remember, if you want to save a whole bunch, air is almost free.

as long as you have a compressor.

W5WI · 10-23-2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCrawler

You own a $30K RV and you think that $5 a year savings is quite large?

Find that $5 to save elsewhere and do it right with the correct antifreeze. I just winterized mine today. With 30+ feet to travel and two bathrooms, it took 3 gallons. And had plenty left over to pour down all of the drains and toilets to protect the traps and lube the seals.

Jason

Jason, Jason... Tsk! Tsk! How little of you to question why someone would want to save a few bucks! Or, the cost of someone elses RV. BTW, my 5er cost over $45. But, in your haste to find fault, you completely missed the point.

As clarification to my initial post in this thread. I mentioned that Keystone recommends putting RV antifreeze in the fresh water tank and pumping it from there into the fresh water system. As the comments in this thread show, there are pros and cons to this. Would I do it? Probably not, I'll most likely modify my lines at the water pump as others do and put the RV antifreeze in from there.

As with most things in life the goal is to get the job done correctly. What you use to accomplish that task is inmaterial as long as it works. The winter windshield washer fluid will do the job at a lesser cost. But, as JRTJH suggests there are other considerations and ways to get it done. While I'm having trouble accepting the concept of the evaporation of fluids in cold weather in a closed, sealed tank, his points are sound!

You mentioned fresh water lines and your drain traps. Nothing wrong with using the RV Antifreeze for that. But, in case you missed it the first time I said it, the windshield washer fluid may be put in the holding tanks. That would take three extra gallons. So, using your concern of my cost savings, that would be over $10 bucks not the $5 bucks you mentioned. Cost isn't the issue. The issue is using what it takes to get the job done correctly. If i can protect my system and save a few bucks I'll do it! You can do what you want to do.

Have a great day and BTW your flame was not appreciated! Personal attacks are not warranted when discussing technical concerns! Discussions and disagreements on processes are fine, but you did go way overboard!

**JRTJH** · 10-23-2011, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W5WI

But, in your haste to find fault, you completely missed the point.

As with most things in life the goal is to get the job done correctly. What you use to accomplish that task is inmaterial as long as it works.

Cost isn't the issue. The issue is using what it takes to get the job done correctly.

If i can protect my system and save a few bucks I'll do it! You can do what you want to do and pat yourself on the back for being a REAL RV'er in the know.

But, I'd bet I've been doing this for many more years than you have and I've owned many more RV's than you have and probably traveled many more miles to boot!

Have a great day and BTW your flame was not appreciated! Personal attacks are not warranted when discussing technical concerns!

W5WI,

I don't think Jason was "flaming" you, more trying to express concern that you have such a large investment, are trying to save money (a good thing to do in this economy) but that "IN HIS OPINION" you were actually setting yourself up for bigger problems.

I agree with him, (Not "AGAINST" you) in that your logic is right on track to do the job correctly. However, it DOES matter what materials you use. Imagine hanging sheetrock, no screws, just finishing nails. You can look at the end job, it's beautiful, but, what happens in a couple of years? Yup, the sheetrock starts to come away from the studs and bulge, get wavy and looks terrible. Why? The right materials weren't used. Your seals on the dump valves, toilet flap valve, and the vent stack that goes from that tank to the roof all are set up to "suffer the savings" if you will. Petroleum distillates are "DEATH" on EPDM roofs, you're putting methyl alcohol, chemically similar in structure on your roof through that vent stack, you're putting a strong chemical on all your rubber compound seals that will deform and dry them out. Not to mention that the WW fluid is flammable, and you're pouring it in your holding tanks. There's a caution on the label to dispose of this product properly. Pouring it down the holding tank, setting up a potential for fire is not proper disposal, to say the least.

I just checked the Keystone Owner's Manual and nowhere in it do they recommend pouring WW Fluid into any part of their RV. In fact, on page 51 in the note near the bottom of the page, they warn, "Do not put these items in the toilet or drains... #3. Automotive antifreeze ammonia alcohols acetone. " Again, I urge you to go check the contents of your WW fluid. You'll see that it has Methyl Alcohol in it and is labeled FLAMMABLE.... I urge you, if you're going to do the job correctly as you suggest, you NOT disregard Keystone's owners manual.

What's the reason? To save, using your statement of buying WW fluid for $1.27 vs RV antifreeze for $2.49. Calculated by your means, that's $3.66 in savings. The price of the rubber slide in your 3" dump valve is $8.49 plus shipping (not to mention the hassle of changing it).

Somehow, I don't think that's sound savings, I do believe Jason was saying the same thing.

When all is said and done, your savings just don't add up using conventional logic. However, you are certainly free to do whatever you choose, it's your RV, your money, your choice.

As for length of ownership of RV's, I gather from your initial questions regarding how much antifreeze to put in your tanks, whether anyone else does what your dealer "suggested" by using WW fluid, that your level of "expertise" may be somewhat less than "expert" regardless of length of RV ownership. So, as for your request not to flame, pleaes don't flame others either.....

Just my humble opinion of what I've read. As for me, I'll spend the money, do it correctly, USING THE RIGHT MATERIALS, so I have seals next year, and an RV that survives the winter safely, without damage caused by cost cutting short cuts. And maybe even more important, I won't have potentially voided my warranty by ignoring Keystone's Owner's Manual.

Have a super day ! and safe RVing.

Festus2 · 10-23-2011, 07:39 AM

Gentlemen:
In all due respect to both parties, I have been following your posts and up to this point, I did not read anything that was intended to be disrespectful. There is obviously a difference in opinion in using RV antifreeze versus windshield washer fluid but it did not appear to me as a personal attack on anyone.
Can we leave this and "agree to disagree". I do not want to close the thread and cut off healthy and robust discussion but perhaps the OP's question at the beginning of the thread has been already answered and we can move on to something else???
Thank you.

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