First Trip = QUALITY PROBLEMS GALORE!!

[binfordtools]

Let me start by stating this; I work in the automotive industry and have for over 20 years. Because of my background, I feel that I have a heightened awareness of design flaws, "engineering mishaps" and quality concerns. I try to not be too picky and let things that I have no control over just be. I didn't expect that my brand new Keystone TT would be without flaws, but, I was clearly not prepared for a long weekend in what my family now calls "Christine".

We loaded up our new 2015, Keystone 29RBK with all of our stuff. Truck packed with bikes, kids, GPS and away we went. We arrived to our campground, unloaded the TT from the truck, hooked up the power, plugged into city water (with my 45psi regulator and water filter), rolled out the awning and slide and stood back and marveled at our setup. About 12 seconds of joy before it all began.

My son who was in the camper yelled "DAD…come look at this" with a foreboding tone. During our 135 mile journey, all 3 of the drawers in the bunk area had come open, came crashing down, and broke the frame that was supposed to hold them in. Yes, they were latched as much as the design allowed. No they were not overloaded even slightly. Problem 1.

That evening, after dinner, we lit a campfire and were sitting around it when we couldn't help but notice a dripping sound. As it was now dark, my wife and I got up to investigate, both thinking this was just condensation from the A/C unit that we had running earlier. Nope. The sound was coming from underneath the camper. Flashlight in hand, I knelt down to see the plastic underbelly bowed down to near the ground, with a (now) stream of water flowing out of it! I quickly shut the water off. Assume one of the pipes came loose during our trip. Problem 2.
We learned to live with the problem. We would fill the fresh water tank about 1/2 way, then turn the water pump on when we needed to use the water.

The next issue came when I went to empty the now full grey tank. I knew we had a few more days so I figured I'd just empty now and let it build up again before we left so I could flush the hose after emptying the black tank. So, I hooked up the hose (full hook-up site), pulled the grey tank and proceeded to empty. I went back in to my meter, expecting to see empty and was surprised to see it still full! Apparently the geniuses at Keystone or my dealer, put the wrong label on the wrong tank! Problem 3.

There were a multitude of other small issues; key-locks are all junk, the shower curtain is a JOKE, a few knobs from the windows fell off, the screen-door squeaks horridly and some of the trim and seats are all sew together with zero attention to detail.

From a design standpoint, there are things that after now living in for almost a week are just plain dumb.

In the end, there was more right than wrong and we still had a great camping experience despite the multitude of quality issues. The camper is now back at the dealer after owning for less than a month and one camping trip under her belt, getting repaired. I am hoping this is just "normal" for travel trailers to have quality issues during the first trip. All I know is, if we made vehicles the way RV's are put together, the public would be livid to say the least.

[GaryWT]

I think it was the early 80's that cars were made like that...

We always say it is too bad that the people that design campers were not camping people, otherwise they would know they were putting in design flaws.

It is too bad that the water issue was not caught when the walk through was done. The drawer issue is just bad and should not have happened.

Good luck getting everything fixed, I hope the dealer comes through

[x96mnn]

In the 80s and 90s you did make cars that were prone to defects and huge quality issues. Companies like Honda and Toyota built a better care and the public spoke out by proving they were willing to spend more for quality. Other automotive companies followed their lead and now charge us customers on average 30% more for a car today then they did in the 80s and 90s above the amount of inflation for the better built cars. Quality comes with a price, based on the automotive model it would be 30% more then we pay today.

The public is speaking pertaining to RVs and build quality. There are RVs that will offer the same floor plan, cost 30 to 40 percent more and weigh an extra 50pds per foot. Very few people will choose this as their half ton won't haul it, it cost more and often appear to get less trailer for the same amount of money.

I for one are in the group where I love what I got, if I had to go smaller I would not be going and the money I save more then makes up for the quality issues.

Just my 2 cents.

[theeyres]

The only thing I disagree with x96mnn is that the Japanese came out with quality cars that cost less, not more. When people started buying those cars at less or equal prices with ours, people started demanding more. It's taken a long time for our man. to catch up. Hope the same thing starts happening with RV's. Problem is there is no Japanese or other country RV's being imported to compete with our shoddily made RV's. The issues the OP talked about are not issues that would cost any more money to correct, just better and closer concern to quality.

[JRTJH]

This is not intended to make light of the problems you had on your first RV trip, it should not have been delivered to you in that condition, but in all honesty, the water issues and the holding tank issues should have been identified and repaired by your dealer before you ever stepped foot in your new trailer. I won't "name names" but I can, from your description of the problems you had, tell where you bought your RV. Some dealerships do a thorough PDI before the sale is completed and then do an orientation with the customer on delivery. On the other hand, some dealerships, unfortunately, do a quick orientation (complete with handshakes and smiles) and leave the PDI for the customer. Unfortunately, their philosophy is, "If you don't find it and bring it back, the factory must have built it right." They send a cleaning lady out to wipe down the mirrors and vacuum the carpet and then, "buddy, you're on your own" as they head to the bank with your check.

There are reports on this forum (and on almost every RV forum) of members who have problems with their RV on first use that directly prove the dealership never even opened a drawer, looked under a sink or checked to see if the electrical system was operational.

As examples, it's hard to explain how the refrigerator was "checked and is working well" when the owner can't get it to cool when he gets his new RV home, and on troubleshooting, finds that the refrigerator isn't plugged into the 120 VAC outlet, or how the air conditioner was checked yet the thermostat isn't connected to either the furnace or the A/C behind the control panel on the wall. It's very difficult to understand how the kitchen faucet hot and cold water connections are not even attached to the underside of the sink, yet the dealer says that the water system was checked and is "good to go".....

You would do well to check all repair work carefully when you get the call to come pick it up, the repairs are completed.

Good Luck.

[chuckster57]

John said it right. As a tech that does PDI's prior to delivery and having worked at more than 1 dealership, the thoroughness can span the spectrum. I strive to do as complete a PDI as I can, and have told the "boss" that I can't sign off a PDI sheet unless I actually do the check.

I'm sorry you found those issues on your maiden voyage, but I'm also glad you didn't let it ruin your enjoyment of camping. I would do as John said, check and double check the repairs done BEFORE you accept it. I'm not pointing fingers because I don't know your selling dealer, but I can tell you this: the factory will only pay for the FIRST repair, and I have seen warranty work authorized, paid for and NOT DONE.

[Steve S]

When you did your walk through did you not take the time to check knobs, windows doors etc?
Your water situation is a completely different situation and that should've been caught and corrected before you picked it up! It seems that some dealerships just want your money and then they don't care
I'm glad that you and your family had a great time despite the problems and I hope that your unit doesn't sit there for months like others have had to go through.

[binfordtools]

Thanks all that replied.

This was not meant to be an auto-manufacture discussion; just wanted to level the playing field by stating that I am probably way too picky for my own good, and this was because I have worked in quality control roles for the last 20-plus years. Yes, cars from the 80’s and parts of the 90’s did have their share of quality concerns without a doubt. Asian manufactures did capitalize on this and forced the US to up their quality but as was stated, this came at a cost.

While I agree, my Keystone is not an Audi, I did pay a fairly large sum of money for the thing and do expect some basic things like plumbing, to be fully operational. The person at the RV center (located in Auburn Hills, Michigan for those who wish to figure out who it was) did a 2 hour walk through and at the time, everything seemed to work properly. The knobs just worked themselves loose, I fixed quickly with a screwdriver. The water leak I assumed happened from driving the 135 miles to our destination. Not sure that the dealer could have caught that. Same with the drawers; they worked fine at the dealer and even fine in my driveway before we departed. The grey and black tank thing, yeah, knowing this was an issue the dealer should have caught that one. But for the most part, the things that broke seem to be centered more around quality of materials and workmanship than they are the dealer’s fault.

The items that were defective, if designed correctly and installed correctly should not have broken. Cost and weight are always a factor in TT’s but even so, it could have been done better. Not picking on Keystone, I have read that many TT’s have substantial quality and design flaws as well. I hope that Keystone watches these forums and makes attempts to design out flaws based on feedback.

[sourdough]

I am sorry for the issues on your maiden voyage. You, like most of us wish the quality of the construction and materials on these trailers was better. My dealer did their PDI and then I did mine so I've not had many failures of things you can touch, feel and check. My fenders came off twice and I fixed them correctly the 3rd time. The front skirt on the driver's side came loose because whoever put it together did not position it correctly so all but 2 screws missed it. In my first rain storm the coroplast tore off the front of the trailer.

The things above won't be found on a walkthru and are indicative of the poor quality control/line work that exists in the construction of an RV. Those things are compounded by the fact that many trailers have what I would consider "marginal" components used in the building of almost all facets of the inside. The fact that the manufacturers are trying to find the lightest/cheapest way to construct your drawer supports etc. doesn't help. Even the upper end trailers had cheap construction on some items.

All said and done, we love our trailer and are happy with it. Sounds like you let the good outweigh the bad as well. As I've read, and experienced, it takes the 1st year to find and work out the bugs....hopefully you've found yours and they will correct them. As a note; be sure and USE the trailer as much as you can the 1st year. I only got to make 3 trips in the 1st year with this trailer (although we put in about 5000 miles - it was in the shop for about 5 months) and was never in a rainstorm. The front skirt I mentioned and the coroplast all happened on a trip I took 21 days out of warranty - they were denied as warranty items or as a defect.

We choose, as I hope you will as well, to let the happiness and opportunities that the trailer affords us to be the things we dwell on when thinking about it - not the "little stuff"

Good luck and happy camping.

[{tpc}]

Sorry about your issues. I can understand the frustration. Even if you had better luck, the moment a problem came up you would surely be disappointed in the lack of customer service response you would like get from any dealer or company. Thats my biggest take away on this industry right now...since we pull them with trucks we expect the service and/or warranty work to be done on par with that of the big auto companys. In some cases they may even cost more than what we pull them with, which makes that thought even worse.

I think thats why on most rv forums you see the stuff about pdi's and walk throughs being hammered home ad naseum....because in a lot of cases (maybe not yours) that is the best chance to get things fixed and fixed right...and to leave with a trailer with not so many or just minor issues.

I know my inspection could have been better. Luckily I have had only very minor issues, most of which I have been able to correct on my own. Some of which I just deal with. Very minor stuff. In this regard I consider myself lucky.

And you are right, if the plumbing breaks while on the way, nothing at all you can do about that. It might be missed during an inspection as well...and its hard to see just how well its connected with the chloroplast covering it as well.

Hopefully you get things right and enjoy many more trouble free nights of camping in the future.

[binfordtools]

**UPDATE**

The dealer called today. First off, kudos to them for getting us in right away. The initially told us July 28th (3 plus weeks away) would be the soonest they could see us. The called today and said they would have it ready by tomorrow.

For the water leak, they said that there was a bottom of a screw that was very close to the supply hose that "sawed" itself into the hose during our trip. No way the dealer could have noticed this without dropping the underbelly and looking specifically for this.

For the mix up of the grey and black stickers, they are telling me that the grey tank is only for the kitchen sink and that the black tank is for the bathroom (toilet, tub, sink). Not sure I believe this and certainly not what they explained at PDI.

I will ask them to explain more tomorrow when we go there.

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by binfordtools

*

For the mix up of the grey and black stickers, they are telling me that the grey tank is only for the kitchen sink and that the black tank is for the bathroom (toilet, tub, sink). Not sure I believe this and certainly not what they explained at PDI.

I will ask them to explain more tomorrow when we go there.

In many cases, the tanks have been clearly mislabeled. In other instances, the plumbing configuration has been changed over the years so it is difficult to know exactly which tanks accept drainage from which sources and where the various pipes go.

Previously, it seemed quite simple. Most units had 3 tanks - one black for the toilet only, one gray for the shower and bathroom sink and one gray for the kitchen sink. For some unknown reason, Keystone introduced new configurations and I am not sure if this is an improvement or not. The folks at Keystone seem to think it is.

If you have three tank valves - one black and two gray - it is easy to figure out --- you have 3 tanks. If you have two pull valves then you may only have two tanks.

As you said in a previous post ---"How can this be so difficult?"

Good luck with the dealer's explanation.

[sourdough]

When we first used our 2014 319RLS all my tank sensors read empty. As we used it the sensors showed that black, gray1 and gray 2 were filling or full. I could only find two pull handles and they cleared black and gray 1. The dealer and Keystone repeatedly told me that I had two dump valves; black and gray. I finally found a small silver pull handle up inside the frame and....voila! The 2nd gray tank emptied. I advised the dealer and Keystone. Keystone sent me an email and said upon further review my trailer DID have two gray tanks...................

[Javi]

Looking at the specs for that trailer I'd guess that you have one grey tank of 28 gallons and one black tank of 28 gallons, how they're plumbed is anybody's guess. I doubt that even Keystone could tell you..

If it were me, I'd dump both tanks and then starting in the kitchen I'd run about ten or fifteen gallons of water into the sink and then see which tank registers the increase. Then pull one handle or the other until I got water coming out... That's the GREY TANK.. Then repeat with the shower and see which tank shows up.. etc. until I KNEW which was which and which was plumbed where..

[binfordtools]

Originally Posted by Javi

If it were me, I'd dump both tanks and then starting in the kitchen I'd run about ten or fifteen gallons of water into the sink and then see which tank registers the increase. Then pull one handle or the other until I got water coming out... That's the GREY TANK.. Then repeat with the shower and see which tank shows up.. etc. until I KNEW which was which and which was plumbed where..

Good idea. I am thinking this is a way better idea than trusting what the dealer thinks my configuration is.

[binfordtools]

Originally Posted by sourdough

When we first used our 2014 319RLS all my tank sensors read empty. As we used it the sensors showed that black, gray1 and gray 2 were filling or full. I could only find two pull handles and they cleared black and gray 1. The dealer and Keystone repeatedly told me that I had two dump valves; black and gray. I finally found a small silver pull handle up inside the frame and....voila! The 2nd gray tank emptied. I advised the dealer and Keystone. Keystone sent me an email and said upon further review my trailer DID have two gray tanks...................

Oh wow - that is crazy! I am going to crawl around tonight after work and see if I can find a hidden pull.