Used as designed it's overweight

[notanlines]

Depush, the Onan has been included if it left the factory with it.

[depush]

I don't know if everyone saw it but I mentioned that I loaded the garage of the trailer with things I knew I'd be taking. 2 MC's, kayaks, tools etc.

The point was not only to get my pin weight but all the weights under what would be pretty close to travel weight, minus other knowable weights such as water.

I'd read that TH'ers are designed pin heavy to account for the garage weight. Not sure about that yet, but I didn't expect the steer axle weight to go down as it did.

[roadglide]

Originally Posted by depush

I appreciate the comments. I think it shows the confusion regarding weight claims and limits in the industry.

I was initially taken by the website math when we were looking for a trailer. I too did the math, figured the use and thought all was more or less good.

My understanding is that by law the GVWR, along with other manufacturer info, has to be displayed on the vehicle, usually found on the front drivers side quadrant, and is the final word regarding legal safe limits:



I have all of the relevant ratings (GVWR-GCWR-RGAWR-loaded trailer weight rating-king pin weight rating for TV) from both the TV and trailer (GVWR-GAWR) manufacturers and know the weight of all axles hitched and not.

TV alone, 84 gal diesel:
•Steer axle - 4420
•Drive axle - 3840
*Gross - 8260

Reweigh with trailer, 72 gal diesel (approx 102 lbs dif):
•Steer axle - 4380
•Drive axle - 6920
•Trailer axle (all 3) - 12480
*Gross (both TV and trailer) - 23780

It's also my understanding that towing over the GVWR is illegal. I'm not above some risk taking, when its just me. If I'm 6% overweight by adding water is it a big deal? 10%? Some will say to have 15-20% _under_ for safety margins.

The only thing I'm really going on about, though, is the GVWR of the trailer. The TV doesn't enter into it. Not exactly.

Yes, if my axle weights and pin weight all fall within their rating I guess I could consider myself good to go.

My pin weight, with fuel dif figured in, is 3124. 901 below my TV capacity of 4025, so good there. My GRAWR is 8200, good there too. But I'm 280 over my GCWR already without 900 lbs of water, and food and clothes (could trade diesel for water, hardly ideal tho), and my trailer looks to be maxed out as well.

It leaves me to wonder about safety margins and about legality. And it's the manufacturer leaving me to wonder. Am I to think all those triple axle 15.5k raptors out there should rightly be pulled by a 450/4500 when loaded up?

Isn't it odd that Keystone, or anyone, would make a trailer to haul a ton of toys, have large water capacities, and then put it all on a chassis design that is overloaded when you do?

I’m thinking it has something to do with the 15 inch tires and rims . It should have 6 k axles and load range e tires but I don’t about the 15 in tires.

[depush]

This is how it was loaded when weighed. You can see it's not really jammed full.

I had a few camp chairs in the basement, my hook up cables, kitchen utensils ... not much else really.

[depush]

Originally Posted by roadglide

I’m thinking it has something to do with the 15 inch tires and rims. It should have 6 k axles and load range e tires but I don’t about the 15 in tires.

That's a good point. It came to me with E rated tires and I put E rated Goodyears on it. But the rims are only rated for 65psi.

And ya, the axles just barely cover the published GVWR. Perhaps it was determined the chassis could take more weight in 2008 and they upgraded the axles? Dunno. I don't see too many triple axles out there anymore at any rate.

[xrated]

There are tons of triple axle toy haulers out there.....most all of them are 40+ feet long and 18-20K GVWR or more

[depush]

Originally Posted by xrated

There are tons of triple axle toy haulers out there.....most all of them are 40+ feet long and 18-20K GVWR or more

ah, yes, I suppose that's true. That's above my pay grade so I guess that's why I haven't seen many.

[xrated]

I see one every day,...I bought one March 1st. It's my retirement present from me, to us.

[Mongoose9400]

My tandem axel Raptor has the following specs based on the yellow sticker:
Pin Weight: 2820 lbs
GVWR: 16820 lbs
Cargo (Payload): 4990 lbs
Dry Weight (GVWR-Cargo) = 11830 lbs

I took it right off the dealer lot (as empty as could be) to a CAT Scale:
Dealer prepped items added: 2 batteries, two 30lb propane tanks
Include optional equipment: 2nd A/C over bedroom, Onan 5500, etc.

Pin Weight: 3240
Axel: 9040lbs
Cargo (Payload): 4540 lbs (already lost 450 lbs, empty)
Dry Weight (GVWR-Cargo) = 12280 lbs (likewise, now 450 lbs heavier)

Goes to show how my "empty" trailer is significantly off the advertised specs. Luckily, I have over 4500 of cargo capacity. We do a lot of weekend boondocking trips and travel with 30 gallons of gas and 110 gallons of fresh water in the tanks. Easily over 1000 lbs in fluids. Now, I have 3500 lbs for our other stuff.

[depush]

Originally Posted by xrated

I see one every day,...I bought one March 1st. It's my retirement present from me, to us.

Very nice. I picked up the idea that ppl were moving down instead of up, and that higher rated axles and tires may help provide a middle ground at lower expenses. I inferred much of that from trade shows, I admit.

[depush]

Originally Posted by Mongoose9400

My tandem axel Raptor has the following specs based on the yellow sticker:
Pin Weight: 2820 lbs
GVWR: 16820 lbs
Cargo (Payload): 4990 lbs
Dry Weight (GVWR-Cargo) = 11830 lbs

I took it right off the dealer lot (as empty as could be) to a CAT Scale:
Dealer prepped items added: 2 batteries, two 30lb propane tanks
Include optional equipment: 2nd A/C over bedroom, Onan 5500, etc.

Pin Weight: 3240
Axel: 9040lbs
Cargo (Payload): 4540 lbs (already lost 450 lbs, empty)
Dry Weight (GVWR-Cargo) = 12280 lbs (likewise, now 450 lbs heavier)

Goes to show how my "empty" trailer is significantly off the advertised specs. Luckily, I have over 4500 of cargo capacity. We do a lot of weekend boondocking trips and travel with 30 gallons of gas and 110 gallons of fresh water in the tanks. Easily over 1000 lbs in fluids. Now, I have 3500 lbs for our other stuff.

Those are envious specs, to me. And 10 more gals in the aux tank. What a dif 10 years makes.

[Logan X]

Originally Posted by xrated

I see one every day,...I bought one March 1st. It's my retirement present from me, to us.

That is a good looking trailer! Congratulations

[meaz93*]

Good gravy now that's a big as* TT! Congrats.

[CWtheMan]

Your rant is about GVWR and cargo capacity. They told the original owner what the cargo capacity was; if no major options have been added, that cargo capacity hasn’t changed. What seems to be misunderstood is the cargo capacity. The trailer manufacturer isn’t in any way responsible for an owner’s cargo management. Their responsibility in that area ended on the day of first sale. They have told everyone right up front that portable water is cargo. The more water an owner wants to carry will naturally have to be countered by removing other cargo to stay within the safety limits of the trailer.

Your certification label is in error.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...pictureid=6411

Keystone makes a lot of errors with their certification labels. This one does not show the Original Equipment tire size.

In accordance with FMVSS standards, the tires on the vehicle at the time of first sale MUST match the size on the federal certification label.

According to the GAWRs listed on the certification label you have three axles. Those axles have GAWRs of 5080# each. (My guess is those axles were fitted with ST225/75R15 LRD, that’s the way Keystone did it in 2007.)

Remember, the tow vehicle is carrying the tongue/hitch weight which must be in the 3000# neighborhood.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Logan X

That is a good looking trailer! Congratulations

Thank you, now to get to retirement, which is less than 11 months away!

[depush]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Your rant is about GVWR and cargo capacity. They told the original owner what the cargo capacity was; if no major options have been added, that cargo capacity hasn’t changed. What seems to be misunderstood is the cargo capacity. The trailer manufacturer isn’t in any way responsible for an owner’s cargo management. Their responsibility in that area ended on the day of first sale. They have told everyone right up front that portable water is cargo. The more water an owner wants to carry will naturally have to be countered by removing other cargo to stay within the safety limits of the trailer.

Your certification label is in error.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...pictureid=6411

Keystone makes a lot of errors with their certification labels. This one does not show the Original Equipment tire size.

In accordance with FMVSS standards, the tires on the vehicle at the time of first sale MUST match the size on the federal certification label.

According to the GAWRs listed on the certification label you have three axles. Those axles have GAWRs of 5080# each. (My guess is those axles were fitted with ST225/75R15 LRD, that’s the way Keystone did it in 2007.)

Remember, the tow vehicle is carrying the tongue/hitch weight which must be in the 3000# neighborhood.

That's a professional approach to the matter. I agree it is the responsibility of owners to not only comply with the law but to generally operate in a safe manner. Including the proper loading of cargo. It's true that manufacturers aren't responsible for cargo management.

I would note that manufacturers have more than a passing responsibility, however, as recognized by RVIA and NHTSA. NHTSA considered and adopted some recommended changes to the regs by RVIA regarding labeling, in addition to CCC, tire and axle ratings on travel trailers. Those recommendations were considered in 2005 but not adopted until 12/2007, and not enforced until mid-2008. It would appear not to apply to my specific trailer and might explain differences found between the 2007 and '08 models.

While some might rush to absolve manufacturers of responsibility once the product leaves their lot, how trailers are designed and promoted can and IMO does lead to overloading and non-compliance. In fact, the 2005 proposed rules changes implicitly recognize this.

From the Fed Registry, "The following numbers were extracted from the RVSEF 2003 Annual Report to the Industry:"

• 60 percent of 14,606 motor homes weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 56 percent of 2,533 fifth wheel travel trailers weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 51 percent of 827 non-fifth wheel travel trailers weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 54 percent of 2,460 motor homes weighed in 2003 were overloaded.
• 47 percent of 334 fifth wheel travel trailers weighed in 2003 were overloaded.
• 47 percent of 108 non-fifth wheel travel trailers weighed in 2003 were overloaded.

Admittedly I was a bit chafed when I read my reweigh numbers and learned I couldn't safely, or legally, carry two motorcycles and a full tank of fresh water. I take CCC and load ratings seriously. That's why I weighed the rig to begin with. As the numbers suggest and as the govt agreed, compliance numbers are abysmal. Dangerously so when nearly half or more of RV and motorhomes are overloaded. Owner indifference can't explain it all. Their answer was better labeling and tighter regs.

Ultimately it was the difference between my expectations and reality that lead to my rant. C'est la vie.

Adopted reg changes: Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Cargo Carrying Capacity

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by depush

That's a professional approach to the matter. I agree it is the responsibility of owners to not only comply with the law but to generally operate in a safe manner. Including the proper loading of cargo. It's true that manufacturers aren't responsible for cargo management.

I would note that manufacturers have more than a passing responsibility, however, as recognized by RVIA and NHTSA. NHTSA considered and adopted some recommended changes to the regs by RVIA regarding labeling, in addition to CCC, tire and axle ratings on travel trailers. Those recommendations were considered in 2005 but not adopted until 12/2007, and not enforced until mid-2008. It would appear not to apply to my specific trailer and might explain differences found between the 2007 and '08 models.

While some might rush to absolve manufacturers of responsibility once the product leaves their lot, how trailers are designed and promoted can and IMO does lead to overloading and non-compliance. In fact, the 2005 proposed rules changes implicitly recognize this.

From the Fed Registry, "The following numbers were extracted from the RVSEF 2003 Annual Report to the Industry:"

• 60 percent of 14,606 motor homes weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 56 percent of 2,533 fifth wheel travel trailers weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 51 percent of 827 non-fifth wheel travel trailers weighed since 1993 were overloaded.
• 54 percent of 2,460 motor homes weighed in 2003 were overloaded.
• 47 percent of 334 fifth wheel travel trailers weighed in 2003 were overloaded.
• 47 percent of 108 non-fifth wheel travel trailers weighed in 2003 were overloaded.

Admittedly I was a bit chafed when I read my reweigh numbers and learned I couldn't safely, or legally, carry two motorcycles and a full tank of fresh water. I take CCC and load ratings seriously. That's why I weighed the rig to begin with. As the numbers suggest and as the govt agreed, compliance numbers are abysmal. Dangerously so when nearly half or more of RV and motorhomes are overloaded. Owner indifference can't explain it all. Their answer was better labeling and tighter regs.

Ultimately it was the difference between my expectations and reality that lead to my rant. C'est la vie.

Adopted reg changes: Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Cargo Carrying Capacity

Yup, and this is also a NHTSA quote.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

Water has always been cargo.

[depush]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Yup, and this is also a NHTSA quote.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."

Water has always been cargo.

Yes, it's not in dispute that water is cargo.

The comment slipped into the record that, "there is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use," smacks of being a gift to the industry by erasing them from the process. If ppl bought a car with 5 seats and 4 seat belts there'd be hell to pay even though it's the user's responsibility to not carry more ppl than can be carried safely and legally in compliance with the law.

There is something the govt could do. The govt could require a trailer that's properly loaded using all stated cargo capacities to be in compliance with weight rating regs. Or, the manufacturers could decide on their own that trailers used as designed be in compliance. Seems to me that would address rampant overloading directly. Maybe that's too obvious. Or maybe it's just not that important that overloading is addressed when it means marketing depts will lose profitable pitches. Who knows. It's a loose industry.

I'm not suggesting the govt do that. Just noting the apparent washing of hands.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by depush

How are others dealing with this? Or not, as the case may be ...

We bought a Raptor 3712TS toy hauler last year. Took it out a coupla times, checked it out. Nothing serious, we thought. Now for the real deal. I've been getting it ready for an upcoming 5k mile trip out west. You know, do some riding, some kayaking, take our time and not over-plan anything. Livin' our best life. All that.

I'm finding out that if I use my trailer as designed it's overweight. (!?) Is this common?

After a couple of weeks of work doing various stuffs –6 new tires, install inverter/new batt system, roof maintenance, etc, etc, etc– I did a round of weighing at the Cat scales.

TV, 3500HD DRW, comes in at 8260 full of fuel, nothing else. Just the truck. ok fine.

I go back home, load the garage with two MC's (<1000lbs), kayaks and tools. 20 gal of gas in the aux tank (~120lbs). All basic stuff I know we'll carry but def under the 2000 lb garage weight limit. We have some other things in the trailer but it's not loaded to go. Most importantly, there's _no_ water in it. All tanks are empty.

I go back to the scales and weigh the whole rig. Gross combined weight is 23780 lbs. Minus the TV leaves 15,520lbs. The GVWR for the trailer is 15.5k.

I'm at my GVWR limit _without any water_ onboard.

On one hand, I'm astonished a builder could be so irresponsible. On the other, I'm feeling naive and a bit suckered.

We plan on _not_ planning much and boondocking quite a bit. Can't do that very well without water. I watched Flight of the Phoenix as a kid. I know water is important. I don't like the idea of bombing down the road with +900 lbs of water, either, though. Planned on filling up much nearer our first destination. Still ...

I'm kicking myself because, although we were total noobs to RV 5th wheels, we discussed, thought about, and looked at a lot of RV's. We took a long time to decide and find just what we thought we would need and like for what we wanted to do. A toy hauler seemed to fit the bill. Now it looks like I'm forced to make a choice between toys or water.

/rant

I know you're very unhappy about it but that's the way all RV trailers are presented, even when yours was sold. The manufacturer's published cargo capacity - 3755# - fits on the specs that I just reviewed. They don't distinguish any difference from a box of tools or a 5 gallon jug of water, they are all deducted from the cargo capacity when loaded into/onto the trailer. Nobody is going to take responsibility for loading and balancing your trailer unless you have paid them to do so.

[depush]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I know you're very unhappy about it but that's the way all RV trailers are presented, even when yours was sold. The manufacturer's published cargo capacity - 3755# - fits on the specs that I just reviewed. They don't distinguish any difference from a box of tools or a 5 gallon jug of water, they are all deducted from the cargo capacity when loaded into/onto the trailer. Nobody is going to take responsibility for loading and balancing your trailer unless you have paid them to do so.

Seriously?

We're four pages in. After coming in late suggesting I've misunderstood how cargo works, promptly offering a bad take on my cert label and citing irrelevant FMVSS tire regs, all to revive a dead and dying thread ... I see this morning you're now repeating yourself to me about initial purchase procedures which never applied, still describing weight as if it's a mystery, and end with a parting thinly veiled shot.

And here I thought I was being fairly nice about it all. I even entertained your authority figure fed reg game and made it relevant.

One could be excused for thinking you're a curmudgeonly industry shill.

It's a family show with nice ppl regularly tuning in. We're done now.