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Old 06-13-2015, 07:47 AM   #21
sandy43
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I've owned 4 different 5th wheels over several years and my present one, Keystone Alpine is by far the best. I've had a few minor problems, but I called the factory for a little info and problem solved. I personally do not deal with the Dealer, most are interested in the dollar, not customer satisfaction JMO. This forum has also been a big help (thanks guys). Try dealing with Thor (Dutchman) and your opinion of Keystone goes way up. Again, just my observation. Thanks
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Old 06-13-2015, 10:33 AM   #22
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The web is great to ask for help but, when it comes to complaints. We only get one side and when someone goes on and on putting down a product saying they are no good. I do not have much faith that the true nature or size of problem is real. In my life when someone makes a statement, I say prove it, back it up with facts. Facts and proof are lacking with most long winded put downs of a product.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:25 AM   #23
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I've owned 4 different 5th wheels over several years and my present one, Keystone Alpine is by far the best. I've had a few minor problems, but I called the factory for a little info and problem solved. I personally do not deal with the Dealer, most are interested in the dollar, not customer satisfaction JMO. This forum has also been a big help (thanks guys). Try dealing with Thor (Dutchman) and your opinion of Keystone goes way up. Again, just my observation. Thanks
Sandy, I would agree with you that in the past the Dutchmen division was full of quality issues and hard to get them resolved but not quite two years ago Thor moved Dutchmen under the Keystone umbrella. They currently share the same President and customer service. Dutchmen has gotten way better on quality control and after sale service since they were moved under Keystone. I am a GM of a dealer that handles both and am very happy with Thor's decision.
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:39 AM   #24
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I have some facts and a different point of view on this. I am the GM of dealer that sells 5 Keystone brands, 1 Dutchmen brand, 1 Forest River brand, 3 Palomino(also FR) brands and all Northwood brands.

Fact: In my state in 2014 there were 849 Keystone trailers sold, there were 568 Jayco trailers sold, there were 294 Dutchmen(now under Keystone) trailers sold and there were 262 Forest River trailers sold.

Fact: in 2014 my store sold 26 Keystone units, 55 Northwood units, 47 Palomino units, 12 FR units and 36 Dutchmen units.

I guess what I am saying is that we have a pretty broad experience within the industry. My experience is that Keystone and now Dutchmen under the Keystone umbrella has very good quality control BY RV INDUSTRY STANDARDS. I would love to see it better, but you are judged by your peers and in my opinion Keystone/Dutchmen does a good job. When the units arrive new, they are cleaner and ready to put on the lot as opposed to my Forest River/Palomino units that need things repaired and to be washed before we can even show them.

Keystone is the biggest and has been for a long time so it only makes sense that there will be more unhappy people with Keystone products. I don't have any facts to back it up, but in my experience the % of unhappy customers is pretty similar across the board with my Northwood customers being the happiest and FR customers the unhappiest but even at that, a very large number of our FR customers are very happy with their RV.

If all you do is read reviews, you will be scared to buy any RV. I find way more value in actually speaking to owners of RV's rather than reading the posts of people hiding behind a screen name. JMHO
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:22 PM   #25
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I have some facts and a different point of view on this. I am the GM of dealer that sells 5 Keystone brands, 1 Dutchmen brand, 1 Forest River brand, 3 Palomino(also FR) brands and all Northwood brands.

Fact: In my state in 2014 there were 849 Keystone trailers sold, there were 568 Jayco trailers sold, there were 294 Dutchmen(now under Keystone) trailers sold and there were 262 Forest River trailers sold.

Fact: in 2014 my store sold 26 Keystone units, 55 Northwood units, 47 Palomino units, 12 FR units and 36 Dutchmen units.

I guess what I am saying is that we have a pretty broad experience within the industry. My experience is that Keystone and now Dutchmen under the Keystone umbrella has very good quality control BY RV INDUSTRY STANDARDS. I would love to see it better, but you are judged by your peers and in my opinion Keystone/Dutchmen does a good job. When the units arrive new, they are cleaner and ready to put on the lot as opposed to my Forest River/Palomino units that need things repaired and to be washed before we can even show them.

Keystone is the biggest and has been for a long time so it only makes sense that there will be more unhappy people with Keystone products. I don't have any facts to back it up, but in my experience the % of unhappy customers is pretty similar across the board with my Northwood customers being the happiest and FR customers the unhappiest but even at that, a very large number of our FR customers are very happy with their RV.

If all you do is read reviews, you will be scared to buy any RV. I find way more value in actually speaking to owners of RV's rather than reading the posts of people hiding behind a screen name. JMHO

The last paragraph above is very true. So it's x2 for me on that statement.
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Old 06-13-2015, 07:01 PM   #26
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Have u all seen this facebook page. I just purchased a new carbon and can't believe the horror stories on this site. Are these trailers really that bad and keystone so terrible to deal with. My last trailer was a jayco and had zero issues , thinking I should have just got another jayco.
I think it's a crap shoot. We had a 2006 model Keystone and the stairs started to fall off after 8 years. Bought a 2015 model Keystone and had a complete wheel/hub fall off going down the highway after our first outing. I think they all have issues. I'd still buy the Keystone if I had to do it over again because it was the floor plan we wanted. With that said, I'm not happy with the service from my dealer at this point but I don't blame Keystone for that.
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:23 PM   #27
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Nice post mark 1228. Your judging with real numbers and facts. Just speaking to or listening to a large number of owners gets a better idea of that is happening than reading all the "this line or that name is junk".
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Old 06-14-2015, 04:49 AM   #28
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No matter what brand rv you have you will find somebody that has something bad to say about it. I have owned several keystone products and have had very good luck.
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Old 06-14-2015, 04:50 AM   #29
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Is any of this realistic ? Is any of this meaningful ?

I just did a "Google Search" for the following term:

My XXX sucks.

When I put in FORD, I got 2,020,000 hits
When I put in CHEVROLET I got 581,000 hits
When I put in CHRYSLER I got 513,000 hits
When I put in Keystone I got 12,500,000 hits

Does this mean that Keystone is 600% "worse" than Ford? or 1200% worse than Chevrolet? or 1100% worse than Chrysler?

According to the "GOOGLE GODS" it seems that more people have problems with Keystone than with Ford. Oh, wait a minute, they included Keystone Pipeline, Keystone Resort, Keystone National High School and a number of other Keystone entities......

Why in the world would they do that? Didn't Google know that I was looking for problems with my travel trailer? No, I didn't want information about Fifth Wheels and certainly not about some pipeline !!!!!

Now, Why in the world would I even be posting all this "garbage" that isn't even concerning RV's ? Oh, because someone that's completely unknown to me (or to anyone else) posted that they don't like Keystone's, so it's on Facebook now, whether or not it's true or revalent to me, it's something for me to worry about.

You see, I'm thinking about buying a Keystone RV and I read on a website that "My Keystone Sucks". Should I buy some other brand ? Is the information true? Oh, I know, I'll join "some other forum" where a lot of people own Keystone's and see if they can validate my "research"......

If you've read this far, you're probably scratching your head wondering "Why in the heck is he rambling on about nothing?" Well, my reason for all this "rambling" is to show just how foolish it is to believe someone who you've never met, who says he has a "nightmare" with his product. Whether it's a Ford, a Chevy, a Dodge or a Keystone. Seems that some people have different criteria and different motivations. Some will post "My Keystone sucks" because the dump valve handles are mismarked, and someone else will post, "My Keystone sucks" because they don't like the upholstery color, while yet some other person (owner or maybe he just heard about a problem) will post "Keystone sucks" because he had nothing better to do this morning, and he wanted to "help the thread move along".....

So, can you really believe some "faceless, nameless person" who posts complaints on the internet? I suppose you can, after all, research shows that the "GOOGLE GODS" can "prove" that Ford is worse than Chevrolet and Keystone is 600% worse than either of them.

OK, rant off, but my "final question" is this: Why are any of us wasting time reading opinions of people who we don't know, will never meet, don't trust and yet we act on their "advice" as if it were some documented fact obtained from a trusted friend or credible research facility ? Seems to me this kind of thread is more of a "henhouse gossip session" while we're sitting on the nest waiting for an egg..............

In the world of spending money wisely, does any of this even matter ?
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Old 06-14-2015, 04:54 AM   #30
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Can we get the smiley that's eating popcorn? It would be pertinent for this thread.
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Old 06-14-2015, 07:19 AM   #31
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Yup, Here ya go.....

Seems like this thread has become more like a "Chicken Little-the sky is falling" than anything objective upon which to base any considerations..... I find it hard to believe that people actually base large investment decisions on whether or not some "Facebook Page" agrees with their line of thinking. I guess being "informed by strangers on the internet" is more valid than looking for valid and realistic information, but then, I suppose I'm "old fashioned" and rely on what I can see, touch and smell rather than what I can read on some "fancy TV screen" LOL

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Old 06-14-2015, 07:41 AM   #32
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John, you gotta get with the times man. Social media is where its at. That's where you go to get answers...

I have a good friend I've known since 8th grade, we are both now 51. In an attempt to keep with current trends he is a major follower of Facebook, Twitter etc. and I am regularly astounded at things I hear him tell me that he takes as gospel. Why? Because he heard it on Facebook from one of his "buddies", whom he has never met.

P.S. I like your digestion of the statistics. Strictly speaking, you are probably correct. As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:17 AM   #33
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PerryB,

Yup, I'm "old fashioned" in that I still have a "flip phone" that uses the number pad to text..... I think I've sent 3 texts in the past 5 years, so if it were up to me, I'd still be using my Nokia analog phone that Verizon says no longer will connect to they system. Yeah, I got dragged out of the "stone age" and had to buy a Motorola Razr 10 years ago. When it stops working, I'll probably get a "pay as you go" replacement, but certainly not one with a big screen so I can show cartoons to everyone at the table when we go out to eat !!!

Heck, if your friend said he read it on Facebook and it came from one of his "buddies" there, then it probably is statistically correct, eh?????

I'm more concerned with the validity of comments like: "My sister's brother-in law's cousin heard from his friend's sister's next door neighbor whose husband's uncle's wife's friend went to school with a person whose name she can't remember, but they had a trailer that was made by the company that was in Elkhart which is next to Goshen, so Keystone's must have the same problem with their tank valves. But as for the tires, well they are made somewhere overseas, aren't they? Oh and be careful with the windows, those new ones leak if you open them and they don't close properly. Keystone should do something about that, wouldn't you think?

Now suddenly Keystone has bad holding tanks, tires that are under-rated and at least half of them have blow-outs and damage the trailer, and they use second rate windows in all of their products. Why? Because my sister's ......

Heck, there's better information available in most truck stop bathrooms, just go in and read what's on any "stall wall"......

Sometimes it astounds me how much validity people put in the gripes they find on the bathroom walls called "the internet".......
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Old 06-14-2015, 10:49 AM   #34
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I don't take kindly to bashing those who live and die by Facebook. I don't see how it is possible to live life to the fullest without knowing when your bud's go to the store, what they ordered at Wendy's, and not having a screen to stare at when you're out to dinner with your family. Uh, excuse me, but I seem to have my tongue stuck in my cheek.....
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Old 06-14-2015, 11:24 AM   #35
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Social media="AOL groups" on steroids. I agree with JRTJH. Opinions are like...well, you know the rest.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:01 AM   #36
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My first Keystone product is 2014 Alpine 3010RE. Going into second year with it. Some minor problems. Dealer fixed most and I took care of rest
It was a major investment for us purchasing the fifth wheel as its gotta last U.S. A long time
I'd buy this same unit again based on what I've seen and read. Social media is a tool for me and J belong to several Facebook RV groups as well as several RV forums. I use them all as a tool
Some of the issues folks have had so have I. Reading ahead and sort of knowing what to expect and what to look for is a nice thing to have at your beckon call



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Old 06-15-2015, 08:06 AM   #37
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Facebook to me is a cheap form of entertainment. The crap that I read on there and the people that get sucked into it amazes me!
I should ask a question about my trailer and hear all the answers that'll be *** backwards!
If I have an rv related question I ask here or at the dealership.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:36 AM   #38
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Wow....sorry to hear some have had issues with keystone and I cant imagine the internet is filled with complaints. I can say we had a JAyco years ago, it was ok, but not without issues. our first keystone was a zeppelin, very bad luck, so bad that keystone bought it back as long as we bought another keystone. So we bought a outback Sydney, it had some little issues over its 8 years but we loved it.
Our new Carbon, we looked at many rv's, we didn't buy the carbon for brand, we bought for what trailer we liked. They all have issues, you have to keep in mind they spend a lot of time being towed down the road and bouncing around.

So I guess I am a happy keystone customer....
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:04 AM   #39
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PerryB,

Yup, I'm "old fashioned" in that I still have a "flip phone" that uses the number pad to text..... I think I've sent 3 texts in the past 5 years, so if it were up to me, I'd still be using my Nokia analog phone that Verizon says no longer will connect to they system. Yeah, I got dragged out of the "stone age" and had to buy a Motorola Razr 10 years ago. When it stops working, I'll probably get a "pay as you go" replacement, but certainly not one with a big screen so I can show cartoons to everyone at the table when we go out to eat !!!

Heck, if your friend said he read it on Facebook and it came from one of his "buddies" there, then it probably is statistically correct, eh?????

I'm more concerned with the validity of comments like: "My sister's brother-in law's cousin heard from his friend's sister's next door neighbor whose husband's uncle's wife's friend went to school with a person whose name she can't remember, but they had a trailer that was made by the company that was in Elkhart which is next to Goshen, so Keystone's must have the same problem with their tank valves. But as for the tires, well they are made somewhere overseas, aren't they? Oh and be careful with the windows, those new ones leak if you open them and they don't close properly. Keystone should do something about that, wouldn't you think?

Now suddenly Keystone has bad holding tanks, tires that are under-rated and at least half of them have blow-outs and damage the trailer, and they use second rate windows in all of their products. Why? Because my sister's ......

Heck, there's better information available in most truck stop bathrooms, just go in and read what's on any "stall wall"......

Sometimes it astounds me how much validity people put in the gripes they find on the bathroom walls called "the internet".......
And all of this is why I am here. I hope to offer a point of view that is not from manufacturing and not as a consumer in the hopes that maybe someone somewhere won't believe everything they hear on the internet.

Some consumers today feel empowered by their ability to go online and tell half truths or all out lies about their experience or RV.

Here is a real world case I ran into yesterday. A customer that purchased a different brand(not Keystone) from our store 1 1/2 months ago called yesterday and demanded one of my technicians come to their location because their water pump won't shut off and the trailer is flooding. If I didn't send someone out NOW, they would let everyone on the internet know how bad our service is and that this RV was junk. I send a guy out and you know what he finds? This unit has an outside kitchen. The faucet in the outside kitchen is on, filled the grey tank and the sink was overflowing. Not a manufacturer issue or a dealer issue yet somehow this customer could have driven off several customers with their "complaint" all over the internet about this unit flooding and our poor service.
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Old 06-18-2015, 04:54 PM   #40
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Mark,

Thanks for sharing that experience. Unfortunately, even though it's his own fault, the next time he does something stupid, you'll probably get another call, another threat and another "crisis" that he created and wants to blame on anybody but himself.

Wouldn't it be "wunnerful" if you could "predict the future so you could refuse to sell a trailer to "certain types" ???? Of course then, you'd probably wind up being the "bad guy" because he had to go somewhere else to get his "junk trailer"......

Sometimes you just can't win......................
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