Looking to upgrade

[foldbak]

Last chance at 65. Looking to upgrade from a 2018SABWE to a 2022 Montana 295RL High country. It's a big investment that I wasn't considering. Given the quality of the trailers being build today and my never ending repairs to my current 50K investment....do I stay with a Keystone product or



I'm told that the quality of a 1/2 ton light build verses a Montana High Country is night and day...
https://www.folsomlakerv.com/product...95rl-1637831-5


LAST TRAILER!

[dutchmensport]

Jump over to the Montana Owner's Club forum site (Click here and start reading. Lots and lots of posts about the 295RL. It's a very popular model.

About the difference between Montana High Country and the "Montana - Montana" ... as my dealer referred to them them, there's not THAT much difference between them. The Montana-Montana has hydraulic slides and 6 point leveling jacks. The High Country has electric slides and jacks. There are a few other items that are a little more "upgrade" in the Montana-Montana. But as far as the actual build? It seems they both have their own share build problems.

Check out the Montana Owner's Club forum. It's a great bunch of over and everything is specific to our Montana's.

[chuckster57]

You may have to upgrade your truck too. Check your weight capacity and the advertised pin weight to start.

[sourdough]

Lots of perspectives on those questions that have to be answered by you I think.

Yes, there is a big difference in build quality between a "1/2 ton" model and the High Country. The High Country is at the lower/mid end of the Keystone "luxury" class of RVs. It's also a bit less expensive than the regular Montana. I've looked at LOTS of Montanas, MHCs, GDs, Jaycos and others. Not a lot of difference in them. As far as build quality among them - they're all the same at any given price point so I don't even think about that anymore. My considerations were DEALER, price, dealer proximity and more importantly....weight. To get any larger in the trailer I needed a dually and I won't go there so no big, heavy, "luxury" trailer for us....and the MHC has worked perfectly.

For you, with a 2500, the 295 (or any other 14k+lb. trailer) will probably be more than your truck is rated for. My 331 (weight about the same as the 295) is as much as my 1 ton wants (gas). For the 3/4 ton diesel I think a "1/2 ton" 5th wheel of any kind is going to tax its weight limits.

After that I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Keystone vs any other brand. There will probably be more Keystone dealers near you at any given location than the others which may or may not prove beneficial. The 295 has a front windshield which I shied away from as I have read more than once leaked right after purchase.

Lots of things to consider but I think your truck is the limiting factor.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

You may have to upgrade your truck too. Check your weight capacity and the advertised pin weight to start.

Originally Posted by sourdough

Lots of perspectives on those questions that have to be answered by you I think.

Yes, there is a big difference in build quality between a "1/2 ton" model and the High Country. The High Country is at the lower/mid end of the Keystone "luxury" class of RVs. It's also a bit less expensive than the regular Montana. I've looked at LOTS of Montanas, MHCs, GDs, Jaycos and others. Not a lot of difference in them. As far as build quality among them - they're all the same at any given price point so I don't even think about that anymore. My considerations were DEALER, price, dealer proximity and more importantly....weight. To get any larger in the trailer I needed a dually and I won't to there so no big, heavy, "luxury" trailer for us....and the MHC has worked perfectly.

For you, with a 2500, the 295 (or any other 14k+lb. trailer) will probably be more than your truck is rated for. My 331 (weight about the same as the 295) is as much as my 1 ton wants (gas). For the 3/4 ton diesel I think a "1/2 ton" 5th wheel of any kind is going to tax its weight limits.

After that I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Keystone vs any other brand. There will probably be more Keystone dealers near you at any given location than the others which may or may not prove beneficial. The 295 has a front windshield which I shied away from as I have read more than once leaked right after purchase.

Lots of things to consider but I think your truck is the limiting factor.

Well if you got the max 11,000# GVWR on your 2020 GM 2500, you might squeeze under your weight ratings. That said your pin would be in that area of 3,146 at GVWR and a 22% pin which is about normal. Don;t know what you carry in you truck when towing, I know I lost 1,411# of payload when ready to tow.
That is a nice 5er, but at 14,000# GVWR a bit too much.

[JRTJH]

There are LOTS and LOTS of differences between the Montana High Country and the Montana fifth wheels. Most of them are things that you won't notice until or unless you have a problem....

It starts with the frame rails. MHC smaller models are built on a 10" frame, larger MHC models are built on a 12" frame. All Montana models use a 12" frame.

MHC with 10" frame have Ranier 12 ply tires, MHC with 12" frame have Tredit 14 ply tires, All Montana models have 14 ply Sailun tires.

The roof rafter system (design and material) are different between the MHC and the Montana.

The MHC has conventional aluminum frame single pane windows with frameless dual pane as an option. Montana has frameless single pane with frameless dual pane as an option.

Smaller MHC use 6000 Dexter axles, larger models use 7000 Dexter axles. All Montana models use 7000 pound Dexter axles.

Then there's the optional items available on the Montana that are not "factory optional" on the MHC. They include the upgraded Lithium solar system, fiberglass rear cap, In-Command system (if you want to even consider that), Dexter disc brake upgrade and several other "exclusive factory installed options"...

You can go to the Keystone website, open the MHC "features page" https://www.keystonerv.com/product/m...y-fifth-wheels in one window, open the Montana "features page" https://www.keystonerv.com/product/m...y-fifth-wheels in a separate window and then switch between the two windows to compare the differences that the factory advertises.

The two trailer lines "similar but significantly different". Which is the better fit for you? Only you can determine the importance of those differences and how they fit your needs and your budget.

[wiredgeorge]

Whatever you do get the In-Commode game console! I enjoy reading about the fun owners have trying to get the thing to work! Also, get a one ton as the pin weight will be north of 3K lbs and by the time you add passenger weight and hitch and other stuff in the truck will be closer to 4K lbs.

[foldbak]

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by foldbak

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

That's a generic chart with the best numbers possible. Your numbers for your particular truck will be on the yellow/white sticker inside the driver door. Look for "carrying capacity", "payload" or similar and post back with that.

It does appear that they may have bumped the gvw of that line of trucks to 11k vs 10k and if so that's a good thing for you.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

Throw those numbers away. Go look at the driver's side door jamb and tell us what the tire inflation placard with the payload printed on it says. That will be the payload rating for YOUR truck as it came from the factory. Subtract from that number EVERYTHING that you place in or on the truck since it left the factory. So subtract about 250 lbs for the hitch, and whatever the weights of all the people, pets, food, tools, flashlight, and change in the center console.

The higher the trim level the lower the payload rating because all those nice things add weight to the truck. If you really want to know the payload remaining load up the truck with everyone and everything ready to go camping and take it to a Cat Scale. Subtract the Cat Scale weight from your truck's GV W and you will have the available payload.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by foldbak

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

Look on the inside of your driver's door frame for the yellow and white sticker that has the tire pressures on it. That sticker will have the payload for YOUR SPECIFIC truck.
I went from a Cougar XLite pulled by a GMC 2500 with a 6.0. Then to a F350 diesel. Then a Montana HC 305RL. Then acquired the Bigfoot cabover that required a dually. Since we had the dually I wanted to get away from the Montana HC Filon that the Texas sun was killing. I tried to buy a used Redwood 36ft with full body paint but the dealer played too many games.
We found a one year old Landmark with full body paint and bought that.
So all that said, yes there are big differences between a Cougar Lite and the Montana HC, and I feel even more with the regular Montana.
Keystone plays a pretty good game of how they market and price those lines. The dealers will be even more devious if they think you don't know the differences.
You might look at an Alpine.
Be very careful with the numbers and your 2500.

[wiredgeorge]

Mr. Foldbak, Bet your truck doesn't have nearly 3657 lbs payload. One way to ascertain what your particular truck's payload is to open the driver door and look at the payload placeard:

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by foldbak

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

Those s max weight guts are for a Sierra and you have a Denlai so it will weigh more and have less payload.
That max payload is NOT just the pin weight! It is everything you add to the truck after it left the factory.
I suggest you take your truck to a scale and see what it currently weighs ready to tow. In addition there is a payload sticker on the drivers door post, Lilly less than your hoped for 3,657# as a starting point.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by foldbak

All good information. Thank you. Unfortunately upgrading the truck is NOT an option so I'm going to have to settle for something else. I'm a bit lost regarding the weight thing. So according to the specs I can pull 18,200 lbs with a hitch weight of 3657 lbs?

Go to your chart and look at the "little footnote symbol" located next to the red column titles: GCWR, Conventional Hitch, Fifth Wheel Hitch, Gooseneck Hitch and Max Payload. If you go to the source document and click on each of those column titles, it will open a footnote to explain the column.

In GCWR, the footnote states: "Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR). When properly equipped; includes weight of vehicle and trailer combination, including the weight of driver, passengers, fuel, optional equipment and cargo in the vehicle and trailer."

Fifth Wheel Trailer, the footnote states: "Requires properly equipped vehicle. Before you buy a vehicle or use it for trailering, carefully review the trailering section of the Owner’s Manual. The weight of passengers, cargo and options or accessories may reduce the amount you can tow."

Max Payload, the footnote states: "These maximum payload ratings are intended for comparison purposes only. Before you buy a vehicle or use it to haul people or cargo, carefully review the vehicle loading section of the Owner’s Manual and check the carrying capacity of your specific vehicle on the label on the inside of the driver’s door jamb."

So, as everyone has been saying, "go to your truck driver's door and see what YOUR truck was rated when it left the factory"... Then deduct everything you've added to the truck from that sticker weight. That will be what's left for YOUR truck.... I have a Lariat diesel. The payload for my truck is about 400 pounds less than the same truck in XL trim. All that leather, electric seats, butt warmers, leather wrapped steering wheel, thicker carpet, nav system, Sirius antenna, variable speed wipers, electric windows, remote start system, puddle lights in the mirrors, running boards, chrome grill, lights in the mirrors, electric rear window, all add up to a heavier truck and less remaining payload for a fifth wheel trailer and hitch.....

Even at a 11K GVWR, a diesel truck is going to have problems staying under the maximum GVWR with a heavy fifth wheel trailer. Most 1 ton trucks carry a 11,500 pound GVWR and even they have "some issues with heavy fifth wheels"....

All the truck manufacturers are increasing the ratings, trying to increase the payload. Then along comes a customer who adds "all the options on their last truck of their lifetime" (trying to get a Cadillac ride in a Chevy truck) and there goes much of that increase they designed into the "functional truck"...

Then make the problem even more complex with the LIES from the trailer manufacturers who build a chart with the EMPTY weight of the trailer and the "shipping weight of the tongue/pin" before propane, batteries or any cargo are added to the trailer.... Who (except for the delivery driver) will ever tow any trailer only after emptying all the propane, leaving the spare tire at home, no cargo and with the refrigerator and all closets empty with no coat hangers or ice cube trays.....

THEY LIE so they can sell trucks and trailers, we suffer the consequences if we don't check behind their lies to protect ourselves and our family.....

[foldbak]

The truck door sticker says 3035 lbs. The Montana is 11235 lbs. Hitch is 2300 lbs, and cargo is 3065 lbs.



The Avalanche is 11520lbs. The hitch is 2575 lbs, and the cargo is 3480 lbs.


Everything I read about the truck is in the 18K range. My truck cargo is about 400 lbs.

[sourdough]

You're looking at dry weight numbers which are meaningless. My 3/4 ton had a payload of 3190 as I recall. I would not contemplate putting my current trailer on that truck so I bought a 1 ton. The 295 and this trailer are almost identical in weight.

You have a payload of 3035 vs a trailers with gvws of 14,300 to 15k lbs. Conservatively let's take 21% of those numbers for pin weight; 3003 lbs. and 3150 lbs. vs a payload of 3035 lbs. Now add the cargo of 400lbs. (2 adults and a dog??). Now add the hitch; 200, and tools/misc; 200 = 3803(MHC) and 3950 (Avalanche). If you then try to factor in a 10% of payload capacity as a safety cushion you can see you have exceeded your payload by a significant margin, or, even if you don't factor in a safety cushion. I think you can see why the 2500 isn't up to the task and why generic charts and numbers have no meaning when trying to calculate a trucks ability to carry any given RV, particularly the "towing capacity/rating".

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by foldbak

The truck door sticker says 3035 lbs. The Montana is 11235 lbs. Hitch is 2300 lbs, and cargo is 3065 lbs.



The Avalanche is 11520lbs. The hitch is 2575 lbs, and the cargo is 3480 lbs.


Everything I read about the truck is in the 18K range. My truck cargo is about 400 lbs.

The 18,000# is what you can pull on a flatbed, in ideal conditions, you are looking at a 5er that is 13' 4" tall.

You also only have a payload of 3,065#, that is everything you add to the truck. At this point you need to load the truck as you would to pull a 5er, and go to the scales and see what part of that 3.065# you have left. That would be trucks GVWR minus scaled weight.

Here are some numbers for the Montana;
Shipping Weight 11,697 lb.
Carrying Capacity 2,603 lb.
GVWR 14,300 lb.
Hitch 2,400 lb. DRY
Hitch 3,146 lb. 22% @ GVWR
Hitch 2,793 lb. 22% @ 12,697 GVW

You mention an Avalanche, but not a model;
The Avalanche is 11520lbs. The hitch is 2575 lbs, and the cargo is 3480 lbs.

Shipping weight 11,520 lb.
Carrying Capacity 3,480 lb.
GVWR 15,000 lb.
Dry Hitch 2,575 lb. 22% of dry weight
Hitch at GVWR 3,300 lb. 22% of 15,000 lb.
Hitch at part load 2,864 lb. 22% of 13,020 lb.

You might check with your truck dealer, 2020 low mileage trade to a new 3500 SRW with max GVWR, or might need DRW.

Don't know what you carry in your truck, but our personal experience was that we used 1,411# of our tag payload of 5,411 on our 2016 Ram 3500 DRW, leaving us 4,000# for hitch.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by foldbak

The truck door sticker says 3035 lbs. The Montana is 11235 lbs. Hitch is 2300 lbs, and cargo is 3065 lbs.



The Avalanche is 11520lbs. The hitch is 2575 lbs, and the cargo is 3480 lbs.


Everything I read about the truck is in the 18K range. My truck cargo is about 400 lbs.

If you're looking to upgrade to either of those 5ers you'll also need to upgrade to more truck in order tow it safely within the limits of the truck.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

If you're looking to upgrade to either of those 5ers you'll also need to upgrade to more truck in order tow it safely within the limits of the truck.

Mic drop 😁

[markcee]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Those s max weight guts are for a Sierra and you have a Denlai so it will weigh more and have less payload.
That max payload is NOT just the pin weight! It is everything you add to the truck after it left the factory.
I suggest you take your truck to a scale and see what it currently weighs ready to tow. In addition there is a payload sticker on the drivers door post, Lilly less than your hoped for 3,657# as a starting point.

Upon a quick read, initially thought this misspelling was 'Denial', which would be very apropos in regards to our subject matter.