Balance part 2

Brantlyj · 10-30-2021, 11:09 AM

Picked up the tires. I have several kids activity’s to shuttle for so I just now had time to gave them a once over.
They were not balanced. When you get down to it, how important is it? It will be a huge inconvenience to bring them back.

With the old tires I did the old school check by just giving them a good spin and seeing where they stopped and it was always random so guessing they were not bad. I plan to finish up the bearing tomorrow so I could do the same.

Javi · 10-30-2021, 12:06 PM

I'm not going to tell you that you should balance your trailer tires, I expect that you're old enough to decide that on your own... or not

Me.... after watching a lot of unbalanced trailer tires doing the shimmy shammy while running down the highways, I always have mine balanced, can't see a downside to it.

But WTH, I replace my trailer tires every two years as cheap insurance against destructive blowouts.

Brantlyj · 10-30-2021, 12:55 PM

Upon closer look they must have balanced them.

Got home and unloaded the tires. The very last one had 2.5 oz of weight. So I can only assume they did the other three and they just didn’t need anything.

Hblick48 · 10-30-2021, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brantlyj

Upon closer look they must have balanced them.

Got home and unloaded the tires. The very last one had 2.5 oz of weight. So I can only assume they did the other three and they just didn’t need anything.

Or they didn't remove one old weight. I used to own a wheel repair shop. Maybe one in a thousand wheels being balanced didn't need weights.

Falcon67 · 10-31-2021, 05:09 AM

I balance every tire, even the quads. Ok, not the lawn mower.

**flybouy** · 10-31-2021, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hblick48

Or they didn't remove one old weight. I used to own a wheel repair shop. Maybe one in a thousand wheels being balanced didn't need weights.

Agree with this. I'm 67 yrs old and I've bought a few tires in my lifetime. When I was a child I'd tag along with my father when he had tires changed out. I canjot recall a single instsnce where a balancing weight wasn't required. Bear in mind that it's not just the tire but the tire and rimnas an assembly. Getting that combo in perfect balance together are against the odds, much less 3 out of 4 times.

I'm a firm beliver in thst if it rotates it's going to perform better and last longer if it's balanced. JMHO

Lee · 10-31-2021, 06:15 AM

I always have them balanced,.... and in my case I make sure the TPMS unit is on the valve stem when they balance.

CWtheMan · 10-31-2021, 06:34 AM

I haven't seen tires without balancing dots for quite some time. Here is a reference with some explanations.

https://www.rtsauto.com/how-to-balan...-and-red-dots/

Hblick48 · 10-31-2021, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I haven't seen tires without balancing dots for quite some time. Here is a reference with some explanations.

https://www.rtsauto.com/how-to-balan...-and-red-dots/

Would it surprise you that most people mounting tires have no idea what those marks are for.

**JRTJH** · 10-31-2021, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hblick48

Would it surprise you that most people mounting tires have no idea what those marks are for.

Asking about "yellow dots, red dots and white dots/dimples" with most people who install tires and you'll get a "deer in the headlights" or "My eyes are blinking but nobody's home behind them" expression.....

Sort of like using an example of a "bouncing wheel on a truck that has a bad shock"... Many "trailer towing individuals" somehow can't equate that it's the tire imbalance (not the bad shock absorber) on a truck that causes the bounce, but if a similar device (unbalanced tire) on a trailer that doesn't have shocks so trailer tires can't/don't bounce when towing down the highway. Because they can't see it or feel it in the steering wheel, magically, it simply doesn't exist....

I wonder if any statistics exist that depict the relationship between "cheap ST tires that are molded with no control of balance when the carcass comes out of the mold (cheap tire manufacturing) and the life/reliability of that type tire when installed on a trailer and "gets towed, bouncing itself into destruction"
With the "bouncing that occurs as the tire loads/unloads with every bounce and the shearing forces to the carcass/tread molding, it's not surprising that the tread comes off the tire after literally "coming unglued due to the bouncing and skipping down the road after hitting that pothole... Add a leaking valve stem or severe angle forces from backing that hot tire into a campsite and you've got a recipe for tire failure with the best of tire brands... IMO, that means "little or no hope for the cheap, low bid tires installed by RV manufacturers. Not balancing them just adds to the short lifespan before that first insurance claim.....

travelin texans · 10-31-2021, 10:17 AM

IIRC trailer wheels are balanced differently than vehicle wheels.
Vehicle wheels are centered on the vehicle over the center hub & hub centric balanced, which is what the tire dealers use.
Trailer wheels are centered using the lug nuts requiring them to be lug centric balanced to be truly balanced. Just like the colored dots most tire dealers don't know this.

**JRTJH** · 10-31-2021, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelin texans

IIRC trailer wheels are balanced differently than vehicle wheels.
Vehicle wheels are centered on the vehicle over the center hub & hub centric balanced, which is what the tire dealers use.
Trailer wheels are centered using the lug nuts requiring them to be lug centric balanced to be truly balanced. Just like the colored dots most tire dealers don't know this.

You're right. The process to balance a tire wheel combination is different depending on whether it's a "lug centric" or a "hub centric" wheel. The "end result" of balancing them is the same, a tire/wheel that doesn't bounce down the road at high speed because it's out of balance.

Trying to balance a lug centric wheel on a hub centric electronic balance machine will not give "good results" and for most, is probably the reason why a lot of tire dealers suggest, "Trailer tires don't need to be balanced"... for them, it's easier not to have the equipment to properly balance them... Besides, they still get the installation/mounting charge and if you buy the road hazard warranty, they get the balance charge without doing the work, plus nobody (or very few people) rotate their trailer tires, so they make money there too..... It's a "win-win" for the tire dealer and a "damn, what'd I pay for and not use" for the trailer owner......

travelin texans · 10-31-2021, 12:42 PM

I've had several RVs, utility trailers & boat trailers in the past 45+ years & never had any of the tires balanced. Quite honestly I don't know if it would've made any noticeable difference being balanced as I didn't notice any issues with them not balanced. Had no complaints from anyone inside about a rough ride, tires wore evenly & the trailers didn't come apart while traveling.
I'd say if that's what you want by all means do so it sure won't hurt!

**flybouy** · 10-31-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I've had several RVs, utility trailers & boat trailers in the past 45+ years & never had any of the tires balanced. Quite honestly I don't know if it would've made any noticeable difference being balanced as I didn't notice any issues with them not balanced. Had no complaints from anyone inside about a rough ride, tires wore evenly & the trailers didn't come apart while traveling.
I'd say if that's what you want by all means do so it sure won't hurt!

I've heard this stated (balancing not needed, etc) from RV dealers that don’t have tire services and from tire service centers that don’t have the adapter to lug centric balance. When I was a uoung squirt I recall folks saying no need to balance on tires/wheels mounted to leaf spring axles.

I had 2 uncles that owned their own auto repair businesses. One said balance all corners and 2 said only the front. The uncle that said only the ftont was necessary used a bubble balancer. The 1 that said balance all corners used a machine that you spun the tire on the car and an attachment on the rim would be adjusted until no vibration could be felt.

My father wasn't a balance all corners beleiver until his brother balanded the fron tires and they went for a ride. They returned and rotated the tires ftont to back and went on another test drive. The tires that were on the back bounced the devil out of the front end. My uncle said the vibration was there on the rear end but with the stiffer leaf springs it was partially being absorbed by the tires and by orientation wasn't as reafily apparent. He said this vibration would also be denounced in the backseat from the seat springs absorbing it.

I don’t know who was right. That experience was in the 1960's times have changed. I do know that working on large electric motors, eddy current drives, generators, etc. Many years that balancing rotating assembles of much mass was essential. I choose to find a shop that does lug centric balancing. As far as I'm concerned it's worth the money. That expenditure satisfies my concerns that I've done everything in my control to have the best conditions possible for the only link between the vehicle and pavement. Of course that zlso includes maintaining air presdure, not leaving the tires twisted from a tight back in, conering thrmbin storage, etc.

Brantlyj · 10-31-2021, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hblick48

Or they didn't remove one old weight. I used to own a wheel repair shop. Maybe one in a thousand wheels being balanced didn't need weights.

The old tires were stock from the factory. No previous weights. But even if there were any doubts they were bright metal, not the dull oxidized color from age.

Brantlyj · 10-31-2021, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hblick48

Would it surprise you that most people mounting tires have no idea what those marks are for.

I did look for the dots. 24 hours later I don’t remember where they were. I’ll look tomorrow.

I did the old time balance check of spinning I
Them several times to see where they stop. All 4 were random. Although I spun one tire 4 times and it landed in the same spot twice. Maybe I’ll pull that one and have them check it.

**JRTJH** · 10-31-2021, 04:33 PM

The old "spin the wheel and see where it stops" used to work with the front wheel on our bicycles, but not with the rear wheel. The preload on the bearings and the coaster brake prevented the wheel from consistently stopping with the heavy quadrant down. Then, add a wheel that's not completely true and a couple of caliper brake pads that "rub the wheel at one certain spot in rotation, and it may well stop when the pad hits the wheel rather than when the heavy part is down.

I'd suspect it's the same with trailer tires/wheels. Between the bearing preload, the dragging brake shoes, the grease in the hub (temperature related resistance to motion) and the dual lip rear seal, I'd suspect there's a lot more friction working against that 1/2 ounce weight difference between the heavy quadrant and the light quadrant on a 15" or a 16" trailer tire/wheel assembly. I wouldn't rely on "non repeatable hand spinning" as anything more reliable than a way to pass a few minutes of free time.

Measure (or SWAG) the amount of force it takes to get a 60 pound tire/wheel spinning and consider the resistance from the components within the wheel hub and there's not much influence to get gravity to pull a half ounce to the bottom against all that resistance.

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