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Old 03-30-2019, 08:46 PM   #1
cookinwitdiesel
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Invitation to the weight police, need an opinion on my truck

I have a 2018 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali Crew Cab Standard bed (6.5 ft) Duramax/Allison drivetrain. It has had not any modifications.

The door jam payload states the truck can carry up to 2144# Payload.

My current Hideout 28RKS trailer is a breeze to tow although with all my tools and our stuff loaded I am sitting at about 9680# out of the 10000# GVWR for the truck.

Now that we have had one camp out (please don't laugh too hard), we are exploring what other options we would have with this truck, specifically fifth wheels as they seem to afford some design advantages over bumper pulls and have more floor plan options in many cases. We like the Hideout lineup as it seems to offer a lot more value for your dollar than most of the other Keystone brands.

The reason for this post is that there are several fifth wheel models that are of interest to us:

Sprinter Campfire 32fwbh (1680# Pin Weight, 12080# GVWR)
Hideout 299rlds (1605# Pin Weight, 11200# GVWR)
Hideout 308bhds (1820# Pin Weight, 11700# GVWR)
Hideout 292mls (1510 Pin Weight, 11000# GVWR)

I feel pretty comfortable with bumper pulled trailers and sizing them up vs the truck but am a 100% noob when it comes to fifth wheels. I would be interested to hear the opinion of those more experienced in the matter than I. I know that typically speaking, a 3/4 Ton is not a good fit for fifth wheel duty due to the payload rating, and for that reason, the ones I listed are also some of the lightest you can get without being a "compromised" SuperLight/UltraLight/Half-Ton version.

Riding in the truck would be myself (215#) and my wife and daughter (about 130# combined). I do not have a hitch but feel inclined to go with a Reese so I can install their under-the-bed rail/puck system since I do NOT have the OEM prep package on my truck.

As always, I appreciates yall's input.

Thanks!
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:14 PM   #2
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The lightest GVWR trailer you have listed above is 11,000 lbs GVWR. When calculation estimated pin weight, you would multiply that number times 20%....or 2200 lbs of pin. Add in the hitch weight of the Reese and you are adding another 150-175 lbs that goes against your payload capacity of 2144 lbs. So right off the bat you are at 2350-2375 lbs and that is before you add in the other things you mention. The listed pin weights that are above are empty weight pin numbers and the trailer will never be that lite, and probably not even on the day you buy it and bring it home....propane, batteries, etc. And of course there are most likely going to be other things that get added into those numbers....like maybe a truck bed toolbox, tools in the that box....maybe a little firewood, lawn chairs, grill, etc. Anything and everything that goes in or on the truck counts against the payload numbers, and you are already starting out in the hole with 2144 lbs of payload on the truck and a pin weight of possibly up to 2200 lbs. It only gets worse from there when you start looking at the other three trailers.
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:27 PM   #3
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Ya that is what I suspected. Wasn't sure how reliable the 20% estimate was for figuring the math. I pretty much immediately wished I had just gotten the 1-ton but alas, will run this truck at least a few years before I trade up so I don't just eat the depreciation from driving it off the lot. Only 2300 miles on it lol

I should be pretty comfortable with just about any bumper-pull I figure (measured a 900# pin weight on my 28RKS - so if that grows by 300# I am still in spec). I guess until we upgrade trucks, I will have to keep my eyes on them instead.
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Old 03-30-2019, 10:15 PM   #4
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Can the (super!) light pin weight of this Grand Design 5er be believed? Or should the same 20% of GVWR be applied here as well, it seems all of their posted pin weights are very low.

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...oorplans/290bh
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Old 03-31-2019, 03:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Can the (super!) light pin weight of this Grand Design 5er be believed? Or should the same 20% of GVWR be applied here as well, it seems all of their posted pin weights are very low.

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...oorplans/290bh
NEVER believe or use the published pin weight from any manufacturer....it's always the empty pin weight, and more times than not, even that number is low. The reason that they use the empty pin weight is because they simply don't know how much weight you are going to add to the trailer once you start loading it up. Let's say you get a trailer that weighs xxxx amount and has a cargo capacity of 3000 lbs. They don't know if you are going to load 1000 lbs more, 1500 lbs more, 3000 lbs more. It's simply a variable that they cannot know because it depends on the owner and how much they load into the trailer. Thing that they DO KNOW is that the GVWR is xxxx amount. Therefore, when calculating truck size to be able to handle any trailer, always use the GVWR number and multiply it time 20% and that will give you a good idea where you are going to be with pin weight. Having said that, there are 5vers out there that have more than 20% of the trailer weight on the pin, sometimes in the 23-24% range, but very few that have less. The exception to the "having less" pin weight is Toy Haulers with a rear garage. When you start loading heavy toys in the back of the trailer.....1200 lbs of motorcycles, side by sides, golf carts, etc, all of that weight is behind the axles and causes the pin weight to decrease. My previous trailer (a Toy Hauler) was a tow behind and when I got everything that I needed to take along for our motorcycling stuff, I had reduced the tongue weight by so much that I had to start adding weight up front to get the weight I needed (about 12% on the tongue of a tow behind), to keep it from swaying. I removed the single 12V battery and added two Trojan 6V golf cart batteries, I added a 35 lbs barbell weight plate, I added two 60 lbs sand tubes, and a couple more items up front including carrying 50-55 gallons of water in the fresh water tank....all just to get the front end heavy enough to get to 12% of the trailer weight, in tongue weight. It towed fine then as long as I had the extra weight in front.

And don't forget.....The pin weight of the trailer is just the start of it all. You still have to have a hitch, you still have to account for the passenger(s), and ALL the other stuff you put in and on the truck. It's pretty easy to see how you can easily add 500, 600, 800 lbs and up to the numbers after calculating the pin weight.
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:01 AM   #6
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You can find some travel trailers with a 5th wheel floor plan. Our Laredo 334RE is one. We love it and I prefer the travel trailer over the 5th wheel really. I would say to get some use out of your current rig and don't be too hasty to upgrade yet. There is such a wide variety in trailers out there it can be tough to figure out what will work for your circumstances. We have been RVing since 2012 and we are on trailer #3 and this one seems to be "the one" for us. Don't be in a hurry unless your current trailer is absolutely not working for you.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:18 AM   #7
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If it was me, I'd use the heck out of the truck and Hideout for a few years, then upgrade the truck to a diesel dually. You can still use the Hideout and upgrade to a 5th wheel when ready without limiting your choices.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:51 AM   #8
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There's an old saying, "Don't rush into RVing. Buy your second trailer first"....

Essentially, almost everyone who gets into RVing goes through what you're considering. Whether it be with a "pop-up buyer" wanting a travel trailer, a travel trailer buyer wanting a fifth wheel, a "bought too big" buyer wanting to downsize to keep his tow vehicle or upsize to keep his trailer.....

I agree with others, at this point, it will be too expensive to "upgrade either truck or trailer" this season and maybe even next season. But then, there's no rush to upgrade since, from your posts, the rig you currently have worked well with no significant issues identified.

Why not enjoy what you have with the realization that if you upsize, you'll need a bigger tow vehicle to go along with the bigger RV. You may even find that your "style of RVing" migrates toward a motorhome rather than a towable. I wouldn't lock yourself into a significant loss until you've had a chance to get your feet dry again from stepping off into the water with this rig.
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Old 03-31-2019, 06:59 AM   #9
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Thanks guys. I agree, the truck can be used for just about any bumper pull which affords a lot of great options still. We largely got our current trailer on the recommendation of my parents who have the same model a year earlier. Good open layout, bedroom/bathroom accessible with the slide in for pit stops, liked the quality and finish level for the price. Stuff like that. We also got an amazing price on the trailer lowering our risk/exposure on it ($19k new).

What we did NOT figure in was we have an 18 month old daughter and they do not. We immediately realized we really want to have a room/space where we can isolate her for naps and sleep now and as her own space when she gets older to have some privacy.

In 3-4 years I highly expect I will trade up the truck for the new gen GMC coming out this fall. 3500 for sure, not locked in on drw or srw but all signs for long term use point to drw for obvious gains in payload. It is not my daily driver so the width won't be a problem when not towing.
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Old 03-31-2019, 07:48 AM   #10
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Some thoughts;

Personally, I think a 3/4 ton is going to be stretched with a 5th wheel of any size. Between the high weights of the pin and hitch it eats up a chunk of payload. Ours has a payload of 3200 and I don't want to put a 5vr behind it because I like to carry too much "stuff" with me that takes away available payload.

Since you have a new truck, look hard at the larger bumper pulls. We knew what we wanted in an RV when we retired and bought a new unit. I went in with the full intention of buying a new Class A diesel pusher. After looking at lots of them I determined that they were too confined, I hated driving one and it was a huge stranded investment. Due to payload issues I decided to look at bumper pulls and used our criteria to look at what seemed like a zillion of them all over. We found this one and after looking at it over and over decided it fit the bill even though it was bigger than our 1/2 ton really should carry. Ended up with this 3/4 ton to pull it and we have payload to spare.

What we've found is that we probably did too good of a job in selecting this trailer. We are totally happy because it fits our needs. Last year I was thinking I wanted to upgrade trucks to a 1 ton diesel and get a 5th wheel. We looked and looked but didn't find anything we liked better as far as useablility unless we just went to a monster trailer and we don't want that. We also don't like the stairs and the always cramped space at the top trying to get into the bathroom. Our concern about the stairs was confirmed earlier this year when our friend from MI fell down the stairs of his new Big Horn and broke his foot.

All that to say you can probably find a bumper pull with a floorplan that would work out just fine for you. Increase the number of slides to at least 3, get a bedroom with the bed in the slide to give you the entire front as a closet and a lot roomier feel (we won't have anything else), look at storage; most 5vrs anywhere near the size of our bumper pull don't offer the interior storage we have.

Good luck on finding "the one" that fills the bill for you and yours - it's out there.
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Old 03-31-2019, 08:30 AM   #11
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I have found several Bunkhouse TT layouts that I mostly like. My main issue that was making me look at 5ers is that NONE of the bunkhouse TTs (with a separate bunk room in the back) have a bedroom slide with the bed in it adding a lot of floor space. With 5ers, this becomes an option (albeit, on the larger trailers, not the ones I listed here). I was at a Camping World yesterday and popped inside a few trailers while there and it did seem like the bedroom with the same layout as my Hideout but in a 5er was more spacious than my Hideout bedroom is (wizardry). The better docking station layout on most 5ers and the larger pass through storage was also appealing to me. As a bonus, many 5er bunkhouses also had an extra 1/2 bath which is nice.

Current TT Bunkhouses that are of interest:

Sprinter 325bmk
Outback 340bh
Sprinter Campfire 33bh

And some Grand Designs:

Imagine 3170bh
Reflections 312bhts

While there I saw this used 5er and my wife thought it is AWESOME but was super bummed when I told her our truck definitely can't handle it.

https://rv.campingworld.com/rvdetail...30k-RVAC530981
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Old 03-31-2019, 08:41 AM   #12
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Something else to consider in the bumper pull vs 5th wheel conversation, and I also tow a bumper pull with a 3/4 ton, is the use of your truck bed. I noticed on your recent trip that you liked to travel with a lot of tools in the bed of your truck. I also travel with a lot of tools and I’m not sure where I would put all of that stuff if I had a 5th wheel.

We have a bunk house, it’s only 27 feet long. It works well for our family which consists of me and my wife plus 4 kids ages 13 to 2. It would not work for full time but we’ve been on week long trips and it works great. We just got creative with nap times for the baby. We would take the baby for a walk in a jogger that fully reclined. The baby would fall asleep and we would park the jogger in the shade near the trailer. That worked well for nap times.
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Old 03-31-2019, 08:48 AM   #13
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The tools would largely move into the pass-through storage was my thinking there. Ideally some may stay in a box in the front of the truck bed but that would compound payload concerns. They are definitely all coming along for the ride no matter what trailer I get haha.

Having the truck bed available to carry such things was a part of the decision making process when we first bought the truck - we had talked ourselves into thinking that a TT is all we could ever need, wont need a 5er, so a 3/4 ton is fine, and having the truck bed available was a big pro to that line of thinking and justification. Like many, I did my research and made my purchases (partially well informed) and THEN came on here and started learning properly.

While at CW yesterday, looked at a rear den Montana they had in the show room, that thing had a rack out storage area literally as big as a truck bed in the back, seemed to help with that issue lol. If you have a huge truck, a huge budget, and don't mind driving a 40+' trailer around.
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Old 03-31-2019, 09:22 AM   #14
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Depends if you want to stay under the GVWR of the truck or go by axle weights. For some comparison, my similar truck but a gasser has 3000# payload and I'm (barely) under my 10,000# GVWR with my 11,000# loaded 5th wheel. Your diesel can out pull me 8 days a week but I'm rated to carry a heavier 5th wheel because you have a heavier engine. Even though your engine in on your front axle and the RV pin weight goes on the rear rear axle. Make sense, huh?

This is where the pages of arguments about lawyers and being locked away in prison for the rest of your life will begin. In case you've been lucky enough to miss these arguments, here are the cliff notes:

You could carry a much heavier pin 5th while exceeding your GVWR but staying under your axle weights
2500 and 3500 have same or very similar components and the 3500 are rated much higher
GVWR is somewhat of an artificial rating to stay in the 3/4 ton class (under 10,000#)
IMO, tire and axle weights are by far the most important - if starting from scratch it would just make sense to get a 3500 truck but if you have a 2500 you just have to decide if you are okay with exceeding your GVWR but staying under your axle ratings
Despite what many will claim, their neighbor's hairdresser's son's soccer coach really didn't go to jail by exceeding his GVWR.
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Old 03-31-2019, 09:37 AM   #15
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Ya I have read all those threads.

The only things mechanically separating me from a 3500 SRW is new wheels/tires and leaf springs. My chassis, breaks, engine, transmission, axles are the same. I even weighed doing those upgrades to "add" capacity to my truck but for the cost of doing all of that, I would just "eat" that much on a trade-in and have a real stickered 3500.

While I know they are largely the same truck, I do want to abide by and respect the 10000# GVWR. On my last trip, I was literally a full 1500# UNDER my rear GAWR but I am not about to take that as a license to load it up by that much more. If I only cared about that, then this whole discussion would be moot and I would be yet another 3/4 ton owner pulling a trailer while over the trucks payload rating.

The "curb weight" of my truck vs a comparable 3500 SRW is only an 80 pounds difference (easily attributed to additional springs and heavier wheels), but you get 1500 more payload and 1500 more GVWR (what a coincidence!) lol.
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Old 03-31-2019, 10:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtofell View Post
...
Despite what many will claim, their neighbor's hairdresser's son's soccer coach really didn't go to jail by exceeding his GVWR.
Might want to take a look at the "new and aggressive lawyering info"... I've seen this type ad (ambulance chasing) in every state that we've traveled.

https://www.justaccidentlaw.com/moto...s-motor-homes/
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Old 03-31-2019, 10:26 AM   #17
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That is a thing, I just wish to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:19 AM   #18
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I’m going to continue to advocate for the 3/4 ton and TT combination. We camp in a lot of state parks, state beaches, and national parks. Almost all of those type places, at least out west, have length limits. Usually, fifth wheels are too long. The way we camp, we spend most of our time outside, so having a lavish trailer interior isn’t necessary.
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:27 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=mtofell;333425]

"you just have to decide if you are okay with exceeding your GVWR but staying under your axle ratings
Despite what many will claim, their neighbor's hairdresser's son's soccer coach really didn't go to jail by exceeding his GVWR."

John posted an ad from a lawyer specifically targeting RV owners in accidents mentioning weigh limits as one of the criteria used. The comment about going to jail should be a legitimate concern and I'm not sure how mtofell knows about anyone ever going to jail. The other, possibly bigger, concern however is the civil penalty you could be assessed by a judge/jury. Does it really make any logical sense to try to skirt the rules or cut corners on legalities because......you can? (at the moment). I was reading an article the other day about a civil court proceeding pursuant to a tragic accident. The plaintiff stated he intended to take away everything the defendant had, or would ever have. Is that where a person would willingly want to place themselves or their family? Just something to think about. There are easy ways to get around this self induced dilemma - buy a truck rated for the load you have or buy a load rated for the truck you have.
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Old 03-31-2019, 03:35 PM   #20
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Might want to take a look at the "new and aggressive lawyering info"... I've seen this type ad (ambulance chasing) in every state that we've traveled.

https://www.justaccidentlaw.com/moto...s-motor-homes/
I think you may have just bolstered my case. Even the scumbag ambulance chasing attorney doesn't list ANYTHING about pursuing overweight situations. Go take another look at his bullet points.

I'm not saying they wouldn't try in the right situation but that guy doesn't even have it on his "wish list".
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