Keystone 5th Wheel Purchase

[wiredgeorge]

A 4x4 also eats payload and the truck's trim, if not an XL (stripped) eats payload as in XLT, Platinum, King Ranch, etc. Those gee gaws eat payload. The 6.7L has already been mentioned.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

I found a calculator and made an attempt at plugging in the numbers for my F250 and the Cougar 23MLE using a pin weight % of 23:

Result Details

Truck name F250 Crew Cab 4x4 6.7L
Truck GVWR 10000 lbs
Truck Curb Weight 7389 lbs
Payload Capacity 2611 lbs
GCWR 28700 lbs
Towing Capacity 18700 lbs
Passenger Weight 350 lbs
Cargo Weight 300 lbs
Calculated GVW 9977.44 lbs
Calculated GCW 16467 lbs

RV name Cougar 23MLE
RV Type 5th Wheel
RV GVWR 10000 lbs
RV UVW 7678 lbs
Payload Capacity 2322 lbs
Cargo Weight 750 lbs
Calculated GVW 8428 lbs
Calculated Hitch Weight 1938.44 lbs

Result summary

You appear to be in pretty good shape for the numbers provided. Drive safely and happy camping!

GVW vs GVWR (Truck)
✓ GVW = 9977.44 lbs
GVWR = 10000 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your tow vehicle is 9977.44 lbs. You are within GVWR of 10000 lbs by 22.55999999999949 lbs.

GVW vs GVWR (RV)
✓ GVW = 8428 lbs
GVWR = 10000 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your RV is 8428 lbs. You are within GVWR of 10000 lbs by 1572 lbs.

GCW vs GCWR
✓ GCW = 16467 lbs
GCWR = 28700 lbs
Your Gross Combined Weight is 16467 lbs. You are within GCWR of 28700 lbs by 12233 lbs.

RV GVW vs Truck Towing Capacity
✓ RV GVW = 8428 lbs
Truck Towing Capacity = 18700 lbs
Your Gross Vehicle Weight for your RV is 8428 lbs. You are within Truck Towing Capacity of 18700 lbs by 10272 lbs.

It seems to just be under the limit with those parameters, but it's really close.

Interestingly the towing guide indicates a payload capacity of 3480 vs the 2611 on the yellow door sticker. It's not called payload capacity on the door sticker, are they the same thing? Using 3480 makes things a lot more comfortable.

I would welcome any feedback on what I plugged in and/or how comfortable you would be moving forward with a similar trailer. It seems crazy that an F250 6.7L TD wouldn't be able to handle a 5th wheel geared towards 1/2 ton trucks.

Well it can be done, BUT you will need to watch trailer weights and distribution carefully. One of the admins, JRTJH, tows a 10,000# GVWR 5th wheel with an F250, and stays within the trucks GVWR, but needs to watch carefully his weights.
The 23MLE is rear kitchen, so food storage should not add a lot to pin weight.
If you start finding it too hard to stay within numbers, you can look at up grading to a 350/3500 tow vehicle.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I guess you have never purchased a vehicle from a dealer? Did they add in scotch-guard fabric protector and paint sealer? Their job is to take as much of your money as possible. $500 documentation? For a title app and license tag? $1000 prep? Geesh. I can see the freight charge but the others?

I have never purchased an RV, but I always pass on those items with a car/truck. I think the difference is that they hard sell, but don't usually put it on the invoice for risk of losing the sale.

Will think of it that way though, thanks.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You can't, and don't, use a towing guide for anything other than an ill advised guess. The door sticker is YOUR truck and not a brochure truck...the brochure is always an optimistic number meant to mislead potential buyers.

Quick numbers; trailer gvwr is 10,000 lbs. GVWR x 23% = 2300 lbs. Payload is 2611 leaving 311 lbs. for occupants, gear, hitch (200lbs?) etc. - not good. The diesel engine removes a lot of carrying capacity due to the weight.

Good to know, with so much information out there, it's hard to sort it out without experience. Thanks.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

A 4x4 also eats payload and the truck's trim, if not an XL (stripped) eats payload as in XLT, Platinum, King Ranch, etc. Those gee gaws eat payload. The 6.7L has already been mentioned.

Luckily it's a "farm" truck so it doesn't have much, just XL/STX. Not that it's helping enough.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well it can be done, BUT you will need to watch trailer weights and distribution carefully. One of the admins, JRTJH, tows a 10,000# GVWR 5th wheel with an F250, and stays within the trucks GVWR, but needs to watch carefully his weights.
The 23MLE is rear kitchen, so food storage should not add a lot to pin weight.
If you start finding it too hard to stay within numbers, you can look at up grading to a 350/3500 tow vehicle.

Yes, it seems tight by the numbers for sure. Maybe I need to get an F150 if I want to pull one of the half tons.

The good news is that I am learning a lot from everyone here on the forum, and have time on my side.

It appears from the marketing info that Keystone is using the UVW and about 15.6% to calculate their number. Does that work out because the tanks, ... are in the front and empty when they test it, or are they just being dishonest?

Since this is my first go at RVing I want it to be a good experience, so I am going to spend some time thinking through the following options:

1.Upgrade to a different truck with a payload capacity that has more room - not overly likely right now

2.Go with one of the lighter, non half-ton /premium models - where I started

3.Find one that has the load distributed more towards the rear. I have seen a lot of folks say that the pin weight of theirs is closer to 20%, but it seems that it's not possible to figure that out from the marketing info. I suspect that it isn't possible to know.

4.Go with a TT - I don't love this option, but worth considering

5.Go with a heavier model like the 23MLE and see if I can manage it - might lead to 1 before I would like

Lot's to chew on.
Thanks,
Joe

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Yes, it seems tight by the numbers for sure. Maybe I need to get an F150 if I want to pull one of the half tons.

The good news is that I am learning a lot from everyone here on the forum, and have time on my side.

It appears from the marketing info that Keystone is using the UVW and about 15.6% to calculate their number. Does that work out because the tanks, ... are in the front and empty when they test it, or are they just being dishonest?

Since this is my first go at RVing I want it to be a good experience, so I am going to spend some time thinking through the following options:

1.Upgrade to a different truck with a payload capacity that has more room - not overly likely right now

2.Go with one of the lighter, non half-ton /premium models - where I started

3.Find one that has the load distributed more towards the rear. I have seen a lot of folks say that the pin weight of theirs is closer to 20%, but it seems that it's not possible to figure that out from the marketing info. I suspect that it isn't possible to know.

4.Go with a TT - I don't love this option, but worth considering

5.Go with a heavier model like the 23MLE and see if I can manage it - might lead to 1 before I would like

Lot's to chew on.
Thanks,
Joe

Well I will say that you will have ZERO issues running your F250 at MAX GVWR! Did I say ZERO, yes, ZERO!
You will find that a 5th wheel will tow 100% better than a TT, and an F250 is nothing more than an F350 SRW with softer springs, maybe lower capacity tires, and a higher GVWR on the VIN sticker, in fact GM and Ford now label 250/2500's with one ton GVWR of about 11,300# to 11,500# and payloads in the 3,500# range with a diesel.


The point is it is best not to exceed any weight rating.

You state you have towed horse trailers, were they bumper hitch or gooseneck? How many horse capacity?

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well I will say that you will have ZERO issues running your F250 at MAX GVWR! Did I say ZERO, yes, ZERO!
You will find that a 5th wheel will tow 100% better than a TT, and an F250 is nothing more than an F350 SRW with softer springs, maybe lower capacity tires, and a higher GVWR on the VIN sticker, in fact GM and Ford now label 250/2500's with one ton GVWR of about 11,300# to 11,500# and payloads in the 3,500# range with a diesel.


The point is it is best not to exceed any weight rating.

You state you have towed horse trailers, were they bumper hitch or gooseneck? How many horse capacity?

Thanks, I believe that, just didn't know about the payload thing. Just a bumper pull 2 horse, but we had two massive draft horses at one point, so I know we were close to 7,000 LBS when fully loaded.

One of the reasons that we selected our truck was because it's what a lot of folks in the horse industry use to haul larger goosenecks than our 2 horse.

Some of them do have F350 DRWs. I asked about that when we were looking and they were worried about hauling 6+ show horses and having a rear tire blow out, but never mentioned payload.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Yes, it seems tight by the numbers for sure. Maybe I need to get an F150 if I want to pull one of the half tons.

The good news is that I am learning a lot from everyone here on the forum, and have time on my side.

It appears from the marketing info that Keystone is using the UVW and about 15.6% to calculate their number. Does that work out because the tanks, ... are in the front and empty when they test it, or are they just being dishonest?

Since this is my first go at RVing I want it to be a good experience, so I am going to spend some time thinking through the following options:

1.Upgrade to a different truck with a payload capacity that has more room - not overly likely right now

2.Go with one of the lighter, non half-ton /premium models - where I started

3.Find one that has the load distributed more towards the rear. I have seen a lot of folks say that the pin weight of theirs is closer to 20%, but it seems that it's not possible to figure that out from the marketing info. I suspect that it isn't possible to know.

4.Go with a TT - I don't love this option, but worth considering

5.Go with a heavier model like the 23MLE and see if I can manage it - might lead to 1 before I would like

Lot's to chew on.
Thanks,
Joe

As you wade through all this (and yes, it can and does get confusing) some other things to consider.

TT vs 5th wheel - I've owned a 5th wheel now for 4 years, all the years prior (40 years or so) were TTs, pop ups etc. A 5th wheel is roomier and easier to tow. The height makes a big difference to us so it doesn't feel like you're living in a tunnel. A big difference towing is that the tongue weight on a TT will run approx. 13% of gvwr vs a 5th wheel pin that runs approx. 23% of gvwr - that's a lot of difference in load/payload to drop in/on the truck.

Using gvwr for tongue/pin estimations is the only safe way to guesstimate what those weights will be. Seems everyone is going to "pack light" (I used to say that) and the gvwr is something that will never be reached....then it is. The more trips you take the more stuff accumulates. Add kids and it grows that much faster. A good way to get frustrated is to have to weigh constantly and pull things out of the truck/trailer on every trip so you won't be overweight. I've had to do that and others do as well; it's a REAL pain. Floorplan has some bearing on weight distribution as it relates to pin weight but not enough to try to factor in to try to justify a lighter weight truck. Doing that takes you right back to constantly weighing to see if that can of beans put you over the allotted pin weight. When you get to that point you need to start weighing the tires individually to see what is overloaded where - WAY too much trouble to try and run on the edge

The F250 with the diesel is a "pulling" truck and the trailer weight will not mean a lot (in that size for sure). The truck chassis/suspension will be the weak point and that's why they make heavier duty trucks (F350/dually). If a new truck isn't in the cards keep the above in mind.

What Keystone uses as criteria for calculating their pin/tongue weights for their advertisements is smoke and mirrors as best I can tell. It might be 10% or less on a TT and 15% on a 5th wheel, all based on uvw and ??? Real life experiences and scaling are the only way to try to approximate. To achieve your goal of a "good experience" just keep all these things in mind; the good, the bad, the ugly and the compromises that have to be made. Also don't forget that another real life aspect of RV ownership is the potential for problems and the reality of ongoing maintenance.

[rhagfo]

I don’t think the RV dealer would have a scale, might check for CAT scales in the area, OR see if the display and scales are left on at highway weigh stations when closed. We scale many times at DOT scales here in Oregon as the scales and displays are left on when closed.
Once you know the ready to tow weight you can make a more informed decision.

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by sourdough

As you wade through all this (and yes, it can and does get confusing) some other things to consider.

TT vs 5th wheel - I've owned a 5th wheel now for 4 years, all the years prior (40 years or so) were TTs, pop ups etc. A 5th wheel is roomier and easier to tow. The height makes a big difference to us so it doesn't feel like you're living in a tunnel. A big difference towing is that the tongue weight on a TT will run approx. 13% of gvwr vs a 5th wheel pin that runs approx. 23% of gvwr - that's a lot of difference in load/payload to drop in/on the truck.

Using gvwr for tongue/pin estimations is the only safe way to guesstimate what those weights will be. Seems everyone is going to "pack light" (I used to say that) and the gvwr is something that will never be reached....then it is. The more trips you take the more stuff accumulates. Add kids and it grows that much faster. A good way to get frustrated is to have to weigh constantly and pull things out of the truck/trailer on every trip so you won't be overweight. I've had to do that and others do as well; it's a REAL pain. Floorplan has some bearing on weight distribution as it relates to pin weight but not enough to try to factor in to try to justify a lighter weight truck. Doing that takes you right back to constantly weighing to see if that can of beans put you over the allotted pin weight. When you get to that point you need to start weighing the tires individually to see what is overloaded where - WAY too much trouble to try and run on the edge

The F250 with the diesel is a "pulling" truck and the trailer weight will not mean a lot (in that size for sure). The truck chassis/suspension will be the weak point and that's why they make heavier duty trucks (F350/dually). If a new truck isn't in the cards keep the above in mind.

What Keystone uses as criteria for calculating their pin/tongue weights for their advertisements is smoke and mirrors as best I can tell. It might be 10% or less on a TT and 15% on a 5th wheel, all based on uvw and ??? Real life experiences and scaling are the only way to try to approximate. To achieve your goal of a "good experience" just keep all these things in mind; the good, the bad, the ugly and the compromises that have to be made. Also don't forget that another real life aspect of RV ownership is the potential for problems and the reality of ongoing maintenance.

Thanks, I have certainly learned a lot from this thread and feel a lot more equipped for my search and what some of the hidden expenses might be. Open to a 350 DRW if that's where I end up.
Joe

[JoeVMorton]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

I don’t think the RV dealer would have a scale, might check for CAT scales in the area, OR see if the display and scales are left on at highway weigh stations when closed. We scale many times at DOT scales here in Oregon as the scales and displays are left on when closed.
Once you know the ready to tow weight you can make a more informed decision.

Thanks, will see if I can find one nearby.
Joe

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by JoeVMorton

Thanks, will see if I can find one nearby.
Joe

Here's a link to the 3 closest CAT Scales near Lexington: https://catscale.com/cat-scale-locat...les&cmdSearch=

Also, any recycle center (to recycle metal or such) will have a scale capable of weighing your truck "solo". CAT Scale cost is around $14, many recycle centers will charge a couple of bucks just to drive on the scale, get a verbal weight and drive off the scale.

[wiredgeorge]

One thing Danny said got my attention. He was happy with the headroom in his 5th wheel. Our headroom is great in the cabin but we have a low profile bedroom so stooping over to get in bed is the way we roll. There are terms for the headroom in the bedroom area of front bedroom and ours is low. I suppose it would be nice to be able to walk around the bed without stooping but I like our camper enough to not fuss about this.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

One thing Danny said got my attention. He was happy with the headroom in his 5th wheel. Our headroom is great in the cabin but we have a low profile bedroom so stooping over to get in bed is the way we roll. There are terms for the headroom in the bedroom area of front bedroom and ours is low. I suppose it would be nice to be able to walk around the bed without stooping but I like our camper enough to not fuss about this.

Yes, the bedroom height in a mid profile 5th wheel is "compromising". We are not tall people but they felt low to us and gave us that tunnel feel we were trying to escape with a TT. The drop dead moment came when DW said she wanted a washer/dryer and we both determined a combo was not in the picture.

On the other hand the elevated walls/height in the living area is the main thing we love because it gives us a more "airy" feeling.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

One thing Danny said got my attention. He was happy with the headroom in his 5th wheel. Our headroom is great in the cabin but we have a low profile bedroom so stooping over to get in bed is the way we roll. There are terms for the headroom in the bedroom area of front bedroom and ours is low. I suppose it would be nice to be able to walk around the bed without stooping but I like our camper enough to not fuss about this.

Our first 5er had restricted headroom in the bedroom area, which I found difficult to deal with, it was about 5'-9", as my wife could stand, but at 6' I needed to stoop slightly. Making the bed would give me a bit of a back ache.

Our current unit has a two level upper area, I posted the floor plan earlier, the shower area is about 6" lower than the area where the bed is. the headroom in the bed area is about 6'-2", although I don't believe this is listed as a high profile 5th wheel. This feature was important to me.

[JoeVMorton]

Thanks for the thoughts on headroom. I believe that the 5ths we have seen had full height bedrooms, but we aren't overly tall. I guess it could be something we have to trade off for weight though. The numbers seem to work out for the Sport 2100RK and Arcadia 21SRK. The 23MLE feels like it's pushing it and I haven't really seen anything else that works in the 5th category yet.

[Jusbored]

I have 2020 F350 6.7 l and I pull a 2023 cougar 29RLI. Approx 32’ and 11k loaded. I accelerate up mountains and don’t even know it’s behind me. My RV is also considered a half ton? I also have an F250 crew cab with 5.4l and there is no way I could pull my RV with that so not sure what 1/2ton truck they tested it with but I guarantee it was a diesel. As far as options go depends on how you plan on using it. Spring, fall, and winter, we are self contained with solar and 2 Lithium batteries and we love that. I also have the 2nd AC unit in master bedroom which I’m grateful to have.

[JoeVMorton]

Thanks to everyone's help we decided on a 23MLE. The dealer had a new 23 which turned out to be 4-500 lbs lighter than the 24, so hopefully that will provide a little more headroom. I plan on staying on top of weight and upgrading to a new truck if needed. My sense is that it's not something that we are going to notice without checking, which would make it even a more risky.

So, now that we have our 1st RV I have a a bunch of noob questions that I haven't been able to find clear answers to yet. I haven't been thrilled with the manual, it seems pretty generic, but maybe I haven't found the right one yet (pdf from the Keystone site).

What is the best place to post those, I don't see a "beginner" forum?
Thanks,
Joe

[cougar23]

We also have a 2023 Cougar 23MLE and had to upgrade our F150 to a F250 XL which has a payload capacity of 3441 Lbs. Truck does not have the extras my F150 had but I bought it for the payload capacity.
We really like our 23MLE much more than the motorhome we had before. So far the quality has good but we only have 2000 miles on her.