That 10,000 lb limit on 3/4 ton TVs

[Rocketsled]

(as a followon to this thread)

After conferring with half the internet, I managed to get 10 links picked up on the Blue Ox WDH, threw the Kayak and 900 lbs of water in the trailer, filled the Truck's tank and went to Cat Scales.

Takeaways:
-Combo was transformed. I'm sure that's in no small part to the new tires on the trailer and the preload on the Hitch. Driving through the construction on I-25 between Denver and Monument was MUCH less stressful than it's been in the past.

-Cat Scales results:
Steer Axle: 4860 (limit: 5200)
Drive Axle: 5400 (6200)
Trailer Axle: 9960 (9500 UVW, 11,700 as loaded)
Gross Weight: 20220 (GCVWR 25,300)
Truck alone: 8500 (payload 1964, max tow 13,000)


Curiously enough, this matches well with the Better Weigh doodad, it registered right at 20k lbs. I then dropped the fresh water (106 gallons, 850 lbs) and it read 19,000 lbs. So for less than $100, it does a good job of showing relative weight and loading.

Now, crunching the numbers, facts and figures, all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload. It's overweight by 300 lbs.

Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered, and it's pretty much only an issue when packed to the gills. (I could see swapping out the water for my bike, which weighs nearly the same.) I'll be pulling some stuff out of the trailer that doesn't necessarily need to be there, some cast iron, the ladder, The big chunk of aluminum billet I rest the front pad on.

and 10 links gets a little bouncy when I drain the fresh tank.

[BrooksFam]

Good info as I'm interested in this system. I need to understand it better and what could affect its accuracy (if anything). Does TV suspension need to be stock, lift, air bags, tune, etc as it uses the VIN.

My OBD port already has one device plugged into it (power steps). Would a splitter/Y affect accuracy?

Links for good info?? I read some, but not enough I think.

[Rocketsled]

I have the better weigh and an OBD2 code reader, I just swap em out as I need them.

[KimNTerry]

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight. If you are commercial and never get in an accident you could get fined or not be allowed to move until you are under 10K GROSS AND UNDER Trailer Gross. AFAIK, you can't register or pay more taxes for more than what the cert says. You can get a bigger truck.

If recreational and never get in an accident, you are pushing the bounds of controllability and safety. Suspension enhancements can help regarding controllability but not safety or ratings.

If you get in an accident, then "the Strongarm" or Mike Sawaya, or, or or, the multitude of Personal Injury Lawyers prevalent in Colorado may come after you "Get the picture"? Your insurance company will most likely pay what they are legally obligated to pay and then forget your name.

I recommend losing a few hundred pounds somehow. Move extras to the trailer or eliminate them. Passengers in a separate vehicle. I eliminated a bunch of tools I rarely or never use and an additional spare. I moved 25 pounds of tools and my compressor to the trailer. Now my truck has minimal tools, just me, the wife and our 20 pound dog.


This is just my 0.02 so take it however you want.

My next truck will be a 1 ton SRW (11,500 GVWR Not the 10K Package). I have to skip the dually as it won't fit in my garage and the HOA currently prohibits them unless garaged.

[notanlines]

“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by KimNTerry

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight.

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200

Originally Posted by notanlines

“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.

Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commer...cation-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:

If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200





Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commer...cation-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:

If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

Actually in Texas (where BigTruckBigRV is based) you don't need a CDL to operate even a CLASS 8 Truck.. I held a Class A CDL for years and now hold a Class A non-CDL driver's license and to drive a Class 8 truck pulling an RV trailer all I'd need is an air-brake endorsement... which is an easy thing to get..

And F450's are capped at 14,000 GVWR

That BigTruckBigRV fellow is one smart fellow, but sometimes he gets stuff wrong...

If you really want to know... look up the applicable laws in the state in which you reside, because they all vary some from another..

[Rocketsled]

Point being: 10,000lbs and noncommercial - it's not a physical limitation of the truck, it's regulatory compliance issue.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

(Partial quote...)

...Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...

I don't understand how you can reach your stated conclusions and site the FHA "Law Enforcement Vehicle Identification Guide" as your authoritative reference. Yes, the GVWR and other items are used for identification and tax purposes. In some states, you CAN pay additional taxes and get approval for increased weight over your current class and into the next. However, this is a Tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. Using your conclusions, a driver of a Class 1 vehicle could pay a whole lot more in taxes and tow as Class 8! Your saying with the same vehicle???

The "Payload" is the manufacturer's CERTIFICATION of what your specific vehicle is specifically designed to carry safely. That number has nothing to do with identification, taxes, etc. It's not a number arbitrarily picked off of a chart - it is the manufacturer's certification for your specific vehicle. If you exceed that number, you can be held liable. Worse yet, you are placing your vehicle, your trailer, and others at risk by operating outside of the designed and certified capabilities of the vehicle.

If "all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload", then all specs are NOT ok. You can't pick and choose when you want to adhere to the law. As others have suggested, you need to either lose some weight or get a truck with more payload capability. JMHO

[KimNTerry]

The white sticker on your truck the "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Certification" says GVWR 10,000 and has your axle ratings. Those axle ratings combined are greater than the GVWR, this allows for proportional loading AND provides the required load reserve capacity. GVWR is the Max allowable weight your truck can legally weigh with both axles combined and is established by the vehicle manufacturer.

I have busted GVWR before and my truck did not catch fire nor was Law enforcement notified when I went over. I have "gotten away with it" and not been involved in an accident. I also understand that if I violate weight ratings I'm on my own. If involved in an accident, the lawyers can/will feast and my insurance may/may not pay out.

Personally, I do my absolute best to stay below those ratings, they're not arbitrary to inconvenience me. They have those limits and ratings to ensure a safe loaded driving and towing experience.

If you feel good about being "slightly over" GVWR that's fine, drive safe, and have fun camping. Just so you know, it's on you if you knowingly exceed weight ratings and the worst case scenario occurs.

[Rocketsled]

At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.

People do that all the time... (drive with a full fresh tank and garage or with two big 6v batteries on the tongue)....

They "almost always have (or buy) a bigger truck" especially after they tow across a CAT scale.....

[Rocketsled]

Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Oh we’ll upgrade, eventually, we say it’s 10 years out, but that was 2 years ago. The goal now ;because I’m a cheap bastard. ) is to make the status quo work. It’s easy to dismiss the costs when upgrading one or the other or both. Sales taxes, hitch gear, personalizing the trailer.

I completely understand where you are...BTDT more than once. And, cheap? I'm a bang for the buck kind of guy and things have to prove their worth to me for me to consider spending my money....I am cheap, about some things. Others I don't care.

Safety, peace of mind, happiness; those things don't have a bang for the buck, they just are. I open the checkbook accordingly. Mull that over while you worry, repeatedly, about what to remove, what you'll miss, wish you had, at what point are you're going to be illegal...unsafe? Watch DW and the kids while driving....is that cargo worth riding the razor's edge??

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

(partial quote....)
Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped...But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes....If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training...It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...

In your original post #1, you tell us you are over your payload weight and YOU brought this up because YOU think payload is a tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. And you conclude your vehicle is safe because you think that is how it should be interpreted. You have disagreed with most responses to your original post. Now, you want us to think you are being "reasonable" and "we just don't get it"?

I suspect you know this is not a complex issue. Vehicles are certified by the manufacturer to be able to handle a specific load. The numbers that apply to you in this case are the certification labels (payload) on your vehicles certification stickers. In order to be legal, you must use your vehicle without exceeding ANY of the manufacturer's certification levels; Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Combined Weight, Front & Rear Axle Weights, etc. must all be in compliance. It doesn't matter "what you think" about this and there is very little "interpretation" needed. You have actually done what is needed by weighing the vehicle then looking at the numbers. They are either over or under!

Yes, local/state tax codes and license requirements will be impacted by the manufacturer's certifications. Those codes and requirements will vary widely by location. It doesn't matter what you think about that, how creatively you try to interpret it, or whether or not you agree with them. NONE of this changes the vehicle's capabilities associated with the manufacturer's certification.

You are either within all the physical design requirements and certifications; or you are not. The Payload Certification stickers are the final arbitrator between legal and illegal - it is not the tax code or anyone's opinion. Your most recent post should have been your first post. You weighed your vehicle, found it over weight, and need to reduce some weight. That's a good story and one we all can associate with!

No, it is not odd that the manufacturers attempt to make their vehicles fit within certain tax codes; it's called competition and marketing. But what you call the "legislative" requirements have nothing to do with determining your specific vehicles' capabilities - those are simply government's way of getting their pound of your flesh. Again, something we either live with or move to a new area. Just sayin'...

[Rocketsled]

My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the

youtube video

), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

My demeanor over the course of the thread has changed from 'I think it's a BS number' (It is, from a purely engineering capabilities and Safety Factor standpoint), but that's academic. It's overweight and the options are:

1. Buy a bigger truck...which is a non-starter seeing as how I can easily
2. Lighten the load for free.

Please note I have not mentioned anything about airbags and other bandaids. The goal is to have a sorted trailer and TV.

And the main issue is the weight of the trailer pressing down on the hitch, all other weights and measures are well within spec. So you can remove weight from the front, and you can also add weight to the back of the trailer (within reason, I've seen the

), (e.g. 30 gallons of fuel) will reduce the weight on the hitch. Loading all of our luggage in the back of the trailer, rather than the bed of the truck, will help things. I hate to do it, because I just dropped a ton of money on two 6v batteries, but a LiFePO4 battery would lighten the weight.

The Better Weigh has seen the total rig weight fluctuate nearly 2000 lbs between 'fully empty winter storage' and 'fully loaded for a multistate trip', so there's definitely some experimentation to be had.

You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...

[markcee]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You are where I was once. I was 200lbs. over payload and it drove me crazy because that's the way I am. You are also proposing to do exactly what I did; weigh, remove, weigh, remove...go on trip - Man I wish we had the xyz, repeat. Go home unload. Next trip repeat. Did that twice and it was a no brainer for me, the answer was sitting on the truck lot and all they wanted was a check and the weight issue went away....until DW wanted a change I'm still in good shape but I like a 10-15% cushion on payload and not sure what will be required to achieve that since I've not had it long enough to scale it...

Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by markcee

Waaaaaay off topic, but happy belated anniversary Danny & Susan! (I noticed your counter went up a year). Thank you for all the great advice you provide!

Thank you Mark. Been a blessed, happy, wonderful ride.

[dutchmensport]

I personally think the listed weights on any vehicle (as far as payload and towing capacity go), is simply the manufacturer's attempt to COYA. Granted, there may be some federal regulations for posting as such, but by posting the weights, the manufacture is saying, ...

As long as you stay within this limitation, your vehicle is safe from failure. So if something goes wrong, yes ... we the manufacturer are liable. However, we all know the vehicle is capable of handling more. But (more) brings the weights closer to the edge of failure. Exactly where that failure is, well,... it's out there. But we're not saying, because we know, whatever weights we post, we know the owner may go over. So, if they go over the "safe" weight and then there is a failure, we are not going to take responsible. It's all on the owner now. (But in reality, we all know the vehicle can handle much more.)

It's exactly the same way speed limits are posted on the highway. It's posted 55, but everyone drives 70 and the police let everyone get away with it. However, IF a mishap occurs, then you can be ticked for speeding too. The road is highly capable of handling 70 mph traffic, but 55 is the "safe" speed. Yet, folks speed over the posted limit all the time.

Your truck can probably handle an additional 300 pounds with no issues ever. But, in the long term, if issues do arise, just remember, you stepped outside the manufacturers "safety" numbers. You can't lay fault at the manufacturer. And yes, eventually there is truly a limit where too much weight is simply too much. Where that is, is truly anyone's guess.