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Old 06-09-2022, 11:20 AM   #1
jxnbbl
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RV - Electrical circuits - "know you RV"

I thought I'd just post this here as I couldn't find a thread and I see it as a safety issue. That most would not understand. I highly recommend taking a tester/lamp/anything that can plug into an outlet and writing out a "map" of which outlets are on your trailers circuits. Turn on one breaker and find out what works....

Over the past number of weeks I've had to dissect the electrical system in our trailer for an inverter installation and a reality struck me yesterday that is drastically different than electrical code in a house. I will use the bathroom as an example.

I've seen/repaired various problems due to renovating homes I've owned. In general the bathroom today requires a lighting circuit (15A) and an outlet circuit. (20A)...(plus some other finer details). For instance I've renovated a bathroom and found "melted outlets" since it shared the lighting circuit, the outlet is used for 1500W hairdryers, straighteners, space heater and there are (many) bulbs on a vanity light...all on the same 15A circuit with 14GA wiring. What does it hurt to run this hairdryer as it is the only thing I'm running in the bathroom? Hey dad, why is this plug so hot when I pull it out of the outlet...

Back to the trailer - I was totally surprised to find basically '3 general circuits' (that ran the outlets).

1. the passenger side of the trailer - 7 outlets
2. the drivers side of the trailer (the inverter outlets) - 3 outlets
3. the secondary TV locations and one bedside plug - 3 outlets.

Where I was figuring out how to migrate some of the outlets from #1 to #2 so they can be run by the inverter...there is the option to just run both through the inverter and/or shore power. BUT here is the problem I have where these outlets all are located for #1.

outside kitchen outlet/fridge
outside kitchen outlet
1/2 bath outlet
outside outlet
kitchen island outlet
kitchen under cab outlet
master bath outlet

That is just a crazy combination of outlets for ONE 15A circuit with 14ga romex.

I'm very conscientious when using a generator that I can "only use one item" limit at a time. But what is interesting is that in the trailer.... I read how people use space heaters, probably hair dryers, coffee pots, etc all on the same circuit with a dorm size fridge hidden outside. Looks like I'll have to shift this mentality even when plugged into shore power! Especially knowing the electrical connectors of these trailer outlets.
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Old 06-09-2022, 12:03 PM   #2
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I think there have been many warnings from time to time about running high wattage items in a trailer with more or less generic descriptions. Some take for granted what you can/can't, should/shouldn't run together in an RV. Starting with a 30A (or even a 20A pop up) helps. If you go straight into a 50A RV and haven't assessed what's where and does what you think you're at home.

As you have pointed out, and like I figure, the wiring in a trailer is ran for convenience, not to meet a code. In light of that it's important for an owner to do just as you mentioned and get familiar with their RV and what goes where. I keep a spiral notebook and binder on mine as I verify and change stuff. Thanks for sharing that observation.

Keystone belongs to RVIA and RVIA follows NFPA 1192 for safety regulations. I thought I had saved that somewhere but could not find it and the current ones I could find needed to be purchased. In lieu of that here's a link to a video that shares changes that occurred to NFPA 1192 for 2021. Not all inclusive but kind of interesting;

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Old 06-10-2022, 03:10 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reference. I actually have 'free access' to the NFPA site (no search and no download) to reference documents. Just for others you can look at NFPA 1192 but for electrical there is just a reference out to a section of the electrical code NFPA 70 section 551. I haven't gone through it but I believe it will be a the variants of recreational vehicles VS standard household wiring.

Again thanks for the reference video I did skim through it and looked interesting.
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Old 06-10-2022, 04:49 AM   #4
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Jay, are you sure circuit #1 is only 15 amp? That circuit requires a GFIC device as the first outlet. It also seems that all the kitchen outlets are on that circuit, that is just crazy!
We added a second GFCI outlet in our kitchen on popup outlets.
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Old 06-10-2022, 08:51 AM   #5
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Remember, on a 30A main, you really don't have that much capacity. An AC will pull 12A FLA typically. The trailers aren't required to meet NEC 110, and they don't. I installed the progressive industries hard wired EMS, and it provides a readout of current draw. When the microwave is running, it pulls 12A.

NEC 240 places limitations on circuits under 100A, and requires you to use the NEC 310 table with the 60C de-rate.

Long story short, don't try to run a coffee pot and the microwave at the same time.
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Old 06-10-2022, 10:25 AM   #6
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True, this is a 50A trailer and the non-AC leg so there is plenty of room. Just a bit odd and a good example that you can't assume this is a 'little house'. (from an electrical standpoint)
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Old 06-10-2022, 10:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by jxnbbl View Post
True, this is a 50A trailer and the non-AC leg so there is plenty of room. Just a bit odd and a good example that you can't assume this is a 'little house'. (from an electrical standpoint)
I doubt the folks that do the wiring know what load balance is as far as the electric panel is concerned. But then again, I'd venture to say neither do the vast majority of homeowners.
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Old 06-10-2022, 10:50 AM   #8
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Load balancing, similar to voltage drop is not explicitly a code item, it's more of a best practice/industry standard.
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Old 06-10-2022, 11:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by solv3nt View Post
Load balancing, similar to voltage drop is not explicitly a code item, it's more of a best practice/industry standard.
Thank you for the NEC interpretation.
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Old 06-10-2022, 11:06 AM   #10
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Thank you for the NEC interpretation.
I'm actually a licensed professional electrical engineer, so ask away on electrical items. I was also an electrical AHJ for a stint.
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Old 06-10-2022, 11:17 AM   #11
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I'm actually a licensed professional electrical engineer, so ask away on electrical items. I was also an electrical AHJ for a stint.
Thanks for your ciriculum vitae. If I have questions I'll ask but to clarify, I didn’t say that load balancing a distribution panel was a code issue.
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Old 06-11-2022, 04:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solv3nt View Post
Remember, on a 30A main, you really don't have that much capacity. An AC will pull 12A FLA typically. The trailers aren't required to meet NEC 110, and they don't. I installed the progressive industries hard wired EMS, and it provides a readout of current draw. When the microwave is running, it pulls 12A.

NEC 240 places limitations on circuits under 100A, and requires you to use the NEC 310 table with the 60C de-rate.

Long story short, don't try to run a coffee pot and the microwave at the same time.
On a 50 amp RV running MW and Coffee pot at same t8me are no issue . It is nice to have 100 amps of service
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Old 06-16-2022, 07:38 AM   #13
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Just lookin'

[QUOTE=flybouy;503659]Thanks for your ciriculum vitae. If I have questions I'll ask but to clarify, I didn’t say that load balancing a distribution panel was a code issue.[/QUOTE]

From what I see, he didn't infer that you did.
Thanks for all the info I do understand. 👍
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Old 06-16-2022, 07:39 AM   #14
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[QUOTE=Dadmech;504574]
Quote:
Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
Thanks for your ciriculum vitae. If I have questions I'll ask but to clarify, I didn’t say that load balancing a distribution panel was a code issue.[/QUOTE]

From what I see, he didn't infer that you did.
Thanks for all the info I do understand. 👍
It was more of a fun fact moment.
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Old 06-16-2022, 07:59 AM   #15
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[QUOTE=solv3nt;504576]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadmech View Post

It was more of a fun fact moment.
Agreed. 🤓
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:38 AM   #16
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When someone quotes a post that typically inferrs that they are addressing said post.
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:42 AM   #17
solv3nt
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When someone quotes a post that typically inferrs that they are addressing said post.
You'd be surprised by the number of engineers that don't know the code.
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Old 06-16-2022, 09:24 AM   #18
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You'd be surprised by the number of engineers that don't know the code.
Suprised? Not at all. During my career I've seen engineers (primarily from reviewing MEPs) at architectural & engineering firms, as well as code inspectors that think the code strictly their interpretation. While there is some latitude some folks want to play God with the power bestowed upon them.

With A & E firms there's the "errors and omissions" clause in the contract to force corrections to the plans. With inspectors I've found a "gentler approach" worked best. I wouldn't argue with them but take the freindly approach. Typically I'd say something like " I'm obviously not as well versed as you so could you show me where that is in the code book so I can site it when making the engineer change the plans?" That would usually feed into their ego and often when they couldn't find the verbage that supported their view they would often say something like "well I'll let it pass THIS TIME". It didn't matter to me as all I was after was not delaying a project and getting the opening on time.

This is all wondering very far off topic however and I don't want to confuse the majority of readers any further.
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:15 AM   #19
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Advanced Power Management System

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