Ram 2500 / Montana HC 295 RL?

[Pathman]

I’m using the dry weight as a quick guide to trailer weight in order to determine a starting point for models I may be able to tow.

I understand at this point the GVWR and pin weight of the trailer is key. What I’m still a little unclear on, is it appears everyone is using the max CCC of the trailer in their calculations. My question is, how close does everyone actually get to the max CCC of their trailers? Wouldn’t that need to be defined a bit more in order to get a more accurate pin weight?

[chuckster57]

If you use the max weights, odds are you will always be within limits. How close to the GVWR do most people get? Depends on how much “stuff” you put in the trailer. When we went across the country in 2009 we had a lot more stuff than a weekend to the foothills.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by Pathman

I’m using the dry weight as a quick guide to trailer weight in order to determine a starting point for models I may be able to tow.

I understand at this point the GVWR and pin weight of the trailer is key. What I’m still a little unclear on, is it appears everyone is using the max CCC of the trailer in their calculations. My question is, how close does everyone actually get to the max CCC of their trailers? Wouldn’t that need to be defined a bit more in order to get a more accurate pin weight?

May not fill your trailer to it's capacity, but you will likely be closer than you think. I was shocked that I added 1000 lbs over dry weight to my travel trailer, thinking I was 'packing light'. Stuff adds up fast. The good thing about using the trailer GVWR (dry weight + CCC) is that you are planning for the 'worst case' scenario, weight-wise. In other words, you have a built-in safety margin. When you don't have the trailer in your possession to actually load and weigh, using the trailer GVWR and it's 22%-23% figure as pin weight, is the best you can do, and ensures that you know exactly how far you can push things without busting any limits..

I think one of the first and best rules of thumb in this trailering game to observe is that Dry Weights are Meaningless. Use them for nothing.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

If you use the max weights, odds are you will always be within limits. How close to the GVWR do most people get? Depends on how much “stuff” you put in the trailer. When we went across the country in 2009 we had a lot more stuff than a weekend to the foothills.

Copy that, thanks.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by markcee

May not fill your trailer to it's capacity, but you will likely be closer than you think. I was shocked that I added 1000 lbs over dry weight to my travel trailer, thinking I was 'packing light'. Stuff adds up fast. The good thing about using the trailer GVWR (dry weight + CCC) is that you are planning for the 'worst case' scenario, weight-wise. In other words, you have a built-in safety margin. When you don't have the trailer in your possession to actually load and weigh, using the trailer GVWR and it's 22%-23% figure as pin weight, is the best you can do, and ensures that you know exactly how far you can push things without busting any limits..

I think one of the first and best rules of thumb in this trailering game to observe is that Dry Weights are Meaningless. Use them for nothing.

Copy, appreciate the insight.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Pathman

Copy, appreciate the insight.

Just as with your truck, rvs will have a manufacturers tag on the driver's side front corner that will list the GVWR of that rv as well tire sizes & inflation pressures.
Use that posted GVWR to calculate 22-23% for pin weight + all people, pets & other stuff, including the hitch, subtracted from the truck payload.
The dry weight of ANY rv & the tow capacity of ANY truck in the rv world are totally useless numbers.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Pathman

Thanks rh, but with a CCC of 2,966 for my truck, the disparity would appear much closer than you stated, so what am I missing from the equation?

My bad, I assumed that you had a Cummins.
Hemi got you and extra about 900# of payload, just hope you have the 8 speed auto.
If the truck is a long bed, I would get the Reese Goosebox pin box to save weight, you will still be tight on payload.

[bsmith0404]

I’ll go a little different direction from others. 5th wheels, especially drop frame units like the Montana have a ton of cargo space, they also have large holding tanks. If you do long trips and dry camping, chances are you will take up a hood portion of the 2,600 lbs of payload capacity of the 5er. If you are a weekend/week camper at RV parks with hookups and you pack smart, (we use a lot of plastic/styrofoam light weight dishes in our RV, dollar tree is great for RV shopping) you will most likely be well below that number. Keep in mind, your camping situations/choices may change over the years. As others have mentioned, you have light weight hitch options, Some will say a goosbox or Gen Y will add zero weight, that’s not exactly true, there is a difference in their weight from the original pin box. I don’t know how much the difference is. You can also use something like a Pullrite 2600 which is only 60 lbs. you don’t have to load up the bed of the truck with “stuff”. If you’re trying to keep weight off the trucks payload, the Montana has a rear receiver capable of 300 lb capacity, get a rack and load some of the extras there. Personally, I think you’ll be just fine with nearly 3,000 lbs of payload available on your truck, The key is that you are aware of the weights and plan accordingly.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

My bad, I assumed that you had a Cummins.
Hemi got you and extra about 900# of payload, just hope you have the 8 speed auto.
If the truck is a long bed, I would get the Reese Goosebox pin box to save weight, you will still be tight on payload.

Yeah 6.4, but short bed with gooseneck prep.

[Pathman]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I’ll go a little different direction from others. 5th wheels, especially drop frame units like the Montana have a ton of cargo space, they also have large holding tanks. If you do long trips and dry camping, chances are you will take up a hood portion of the 2,600 lbs of payload capacity of the 5er. If you are a weekend/week camper at RV parks with hookups and you pack smart, (we use a lot of plastic/styrofoam light weight dishes in our RV, dollar tree is great for RV shopping) you will most likely be well below that number. Keep in mind, your camping situations/choices may change over the years. As others have mentioned, you have light weight hitch options, Some will say a goosbox or Gen Y will add zero weight, that’s not exactly true, there is a difference in their weight from the original pin box. I don’t know how much the difference is. You can also use something like a Pullrite 2600 which is only 60 lbs. you don’t have to load up the bed of the truck with “stuff”. If you’re trying to keep weight off the trucks payload, the Montana has a rear receiver capable of 300 lb capacity, get a rack and load some of the extras there. Personally, I think you’ll be just fine with nearly 3,000 lbs of payload available on your truck, The key is that you are aware of the weights and plan accordingly.

That’s certainly a different outlook so far, appreciate your insight. So I’m getting the impression that the weight considerations (GVWR/pin weight) aren’t necessarily all or nothing, there can be some room to adjust the numbers depending on loads correct?
For instance, as you mentioned, if going to an RV park, I’d be able to travel with only a minimal amount of water, same for waste tanks, so I would imagine that would have an impact on GVWR.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Pathman

That’s certainly a different outlook so far, appreciate your insight. So I’m getting the impression that the weight considerations (GVWR/pin weight) aren’t necessarily all or nothing, there can be some room to adjust the numbers depending on loads correct?
For instance, as you mentioned, if going to an RV park, I’d be able to travel with only a minimal amount of water, same for waste tanks, so I would imagine that would have an impact on GVWR.

Room to adjust the "numbers" NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Room to adjust the "cargo" depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what compromises you're willing to accept.

That said, NEVER (did I mention don't do it) believe that you'll always be able to carry through with that "weight reduction plan".... For instance, you go to a campground to spend a week with water and electric hookups and a dump station (so you can dump before you leave for home)... And on Sunday afternoon, the lift pump at the dump station burns up and the park closes the dump facility, BUT YOU HAVE FULL TANKS and checkout is in 1 hour..... So, your "best made plans turn to crap" and you're forced to tow home with an extra 70 or 80 gallons of waste water....

NEVER plan things that you don't have a backup plan to keep you out of trouble....

All things said, people tow overweight every day. Right now, I'd guess that between 1/4 and 1/2 of all fifth wheels on the highway are overweight. Does that mean it's OK ? Nope, but it's done every day. So, when it comes down to the bottom line, it's up to you, what you're willing to accept, what you feel is "too much" and what plans you're willing to forget about when the crap hits the fan.....

Trust me when I say you will, when traveling, wind up in situations where you have to make a decision to "just stop" or "keep going, even though things aren't right and it could impact us more than we want".... When that happens (and it will) the more reserve capacity you have the better equipped you are for the inevitable....

[travelin texans]

These larger 5th wheels have tons of storage space inside & out, its human nature to do our best to fill those spaces & as I've said before if you use your rv with any regularity it WILL be loaded to that max GVWR sooner than later.
As John pointed out there will be times that, regardless of how weight conscience you might be, beyond your control that will put you overloaded, but more often than not it will be self inflicted so be be prepared.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Pathman

For instance, as you mentioned, if going to an RV park, I’d be able to travel with only a minimal amount of water, same for waste tanks, so I would imagine that would have an impact on GVWR.

Not on GVWR, the R is rating which doesn’t change. It will impact the actual weight of the trailer. Unlike some of the others on here, I have a hard time imagining anyone actually putting 2,600 lbs of cargo into a 295. I suppose if your tanks were full, that could bump you up close to the max cargo capacity. The 295 has large tanks and you could easily add close to 1,000 lbs to the UVW. Obviously a portion of that will be on the pin. What I was talking about is more strategic planning. Don’t load a bunch of tools in the back of your truck. Don’t put a generator in the back of the truck. Most RV emergency repairs can be done with a small tool set, generators can be put on cargo racks behind the RV, coolers full of ice and drinks can be placed inside the RV above the axles so the weight isn’t on the pin. Many people take a lot more “stuff” with them than they need. I had to teach my wife that just because we have room for them, we don’t need 10 camp chairs just in case some people come to visit…we don’t need a canopy and a screen tent We don’t need two weeks worth of food for a 4 day weekend. With a big 5th wheel, it’s easy to load it up just because you can. Regardless of what your tow vehicle is, resist the urge to load it up.

[flybouy]

Here's what I recommend for the "we pack light & travel with empty tanks" folks who think they can "manage" the trailer weight. When heading out to go camping stop at a Cat Scale and record your weights. Do this 3 times during a camping season and track the weight "trends". Odds are they will constantly rise. It's just human nature.

Just 2 points. First : "Empty or shipping weights" simply do not exist. Read the disclaimers. The weight is based on a model that DOES NOT INCLUDE any LP in the tanks, any batteries, and may not include the spare tire. All of that resides in the very front of most fifth wheels which increases the pin weight. It also DOES NOT INCLUDE OPTIONS, even if those "options" are included as a package in every unit. These "options" often include a second air conditioner usually mounted forward for the bedroom.

Second point: Be honest with yourself. If anyone thinks using paper plates is going to keep the trailer "nearer to the empty weight" they are just kidding themselves to "make the numbers work" and are lying to themselves. Let's be honest, you're buying the camper to use it, not as an adornment to your truck. In order to use it you will need to add EVERYTHING TO MAKE IT LIVABLE. Basically the stuff you use in your house will be duplicated in the camper PLUS MORE.

Let's take a glance at a "short list". Kitchen (you're gonna eat & drink right?). So you'll need pots & pans, tableware, cooking utensils, cutlery, cups, glasses, food and drinks. Paper towels, napkins, cleaning supplies. How about a toaster? Slow cooker? Hand mixer? Coffee maker? Can opener? Electric skillet?Blender?

Bedroom - pillows, sheets, blankets and typically clothing is stored there. Most folks end up with at least a change of underwear, shirts, pants, shorts, hoodies, sweats for around the campfire, swimwear, extra shoes, jackets, etc., etc.

Bathroom - toilet paper, soaps for cleaning bodies and soaps for cleaning the bathroom. Towels, scrubbrushes, rags, mop, broom. Personal care items (toiletries) like deodorant, razors. Basic medicines and first aid care.

Outside - wheel chocks, jack pads, leveling blocks (plastic and or wood), water hoses, pressure regulator & filter. . Sewer hoses, hose supoort, hose fittings, etc. Chairs, mats, outside cooking items for grilling marshmallows or cooking a steak over the fire. Cleaners, lubricants and rags as well as some tools for repairs.

Entertainment- bikes? Fishing gear? Corn hole games? INSIDE - board games? DVDs? Game console? Laptops or tablets? Chargers and cables for all of the electronics.

So the above is the "short list" of basic essentials. Most folks expand this list as it doesn't even address the decorative things like throw rugs, chair covers, couch pillows or a throw to wrap up in while watching tv. If someone can "pack light" then they are packing like they are tent camping and using the camper as shelter only. When your in a campground and look around you. You'll see folks with 10 chairs set up tables and portable stoves, pop-up screen rooms, flags, and just about anything else you can think of from Camping World or Wal-Mart garden centers.

I apologize for the length of this post but I don't know an abbreviated method of making the point. Selfishly, it's also helpnig me keep my mind off of loosing our dog a couple of days ago. Our 10 yr old Brittany Spaniel woke with his 2 rear legs paralyzed and his front legs were begging to loose mobility. We've had to euthanize several dogs over the years and it never gets any easir.

[bsmith0404]

Personally, we take a lot less with us now than we used to. We have a rule, if we go out three times and don’t use it, it’s obviously not needed for our style of camping and it comes out. That keeps us from taking along a bunch of “stuff” we don’t need. My point, you can keep the weight in check. Don’t get me wrong, we also fell into the take more and more crowd at one point, but I got tired of unpacking a bunch of stuff to get to what I wanted. Now, after we set up camp my basement storage area is almost empty, very few extras. We take what we need. It’s supposed to be a vacation not a chore of loading and unloading stuff.

[jasin1]

sorry for your loss Marshall.

[markcee]

Sorry to hear of the loss of your dog Marshall. I have one of mine getting to that point as well.

You're right, it's never easy.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Pathman

Hey all, new guy here trying to determine if my Ram (with 4:10 rear) will be adequate to tow a Montana HC 295.
The delivery weight is 11,697, CC is 2,603, hitch 2,400, how does all that equate to actual tow weight?

Thanks!

So based on your original question, the answer is NO! Pull it yes, but carry NO!

With a 2,400# DRY pin subtracted from your trucks 2,966# leaves 566#, now likely if you took your truck to a Cat scale and weigh it with full fuel tanks you will likely have less than the 2,966# between its weight and the 10,000# GVWR.
Then if you were able to weigh the pin of the 5th wheel with just battery and full propane, it would likely be more than 2,400#.
Two options, get a 3500 or find a lighter 5th wheel.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

So based on your original question, the answer is NO! Pull it yes, but carry NO!

With a 2,400# DRY pin subtracted from your trucks 2,966# leaves 566#, now likely if you took your truck to a Cat scale and weigh it with full fuel tanks you will likely have less than the 2,966# between its weight and the 10,000# GVWR.
Then if you were able to weigh the pin of the 5th wheel with just battery and full propane, it would likely be more than 2,400#.
Two options, get a 3500 or find a lighter 5th wheel.

Trucks payload capacities are calculated with full tank of fuel.

[sourdough]

The "tow rating" of your truck doesn't really matter, in most cases it's used as a sales tactic. What the truck can carry is THE question generally. How you get to that figure comes in different ways.

The long and short of your initial question is no, that truck won't carry that trailer. The trailer I have is almost identical to the 295 in weights and there's no way I would drop that on my previous 3/4 ton, with a 3190 payload - that's why I have the truck in my signature.

As for will you ever get to gvw? Probably. Depending on how you use the trailer, how often, how many things you like to do etc. On a trailer that big it doesn't matter with a 3/4 ton....it just doesn't have the capacity. I'll round numbers since I'm traveling and don't have exacts; my trailer, again with almost the identical capacities as the 295, comes in at approx. 13200 for this trip - not gvw BUT my pin was just under 3000 lbs. (29xx) - that's ALL of your available payload and no one, no tools, no hitch etc. would be in your truck. Again, that's why I have a 1 ton. Also I carry some items in the truck like an ice chest, some folding aluminum tables etc. - those come off the payload as well.

Bottom line is a 3/4 ton truck is only suited for smaller, lighter 5th wheels; think 10k GVW if you want to stay on the safe side and be able to put a lunch box in with you.