Floor repair on Bullet

[danf]

I started floor repair on my 2016 248RKS.



It started with water by the door but has grown. The floor is the luan sandwich. Unbelievable construction. The top layer of wood is thin and there is layer of shoebox cardboard glued to the top of it. The wood literally falls apart where moisture is present.



Hard tell currently how extensive damage is. I'm thinking that most of the bottom layer of wood is completely detached from the frame and is hanging there by the barrier material on the bottom.



Looks like passenger side from under the fridge/heater up to under the shower. Bathroom feels solid except for one side of the shower. There is a spot on the drivers side by the slide out. I'm not sure if I have to take out the slide out yet. Rear kitchen corner area looks/feels ok. I'll know more after I pull some of the floor off. Once water gets in the floor, there is no way for it to get out. If it gets in on one side, there are spaces/gaps in the foam it can use to literally run entirely across the camper.

[danf]

After pulling it up some. You can see the spot by the slide out. No mold there, but the wood falls right part. It's a bit strange because the wood is better between this spot and the other side that is rotted.

[danf]

Found my leak. It's a factory defect. The membrane that is under the floor and is supposed to keep water out develops holes because it is pinched between the frame and the flooring. The floor itself is pathetic in the way it is built. It's a good 3-4 feet between some of the aluminum rails. The wood is actually wood with a shoebox cardboard layers. The layers are glued but when the cardboard layers get wet they just disintegrate. The wood+cardboard layers are 1/4" thick.



The whole floor is


vinyl
cardboard
wood
cardboard
aluminum frame with styrofoam in the voids
cardboard
wood
water barrier cloth
trailer frame.



So what has happened is the water barrier cloth has developed holes because it's pinched between the trailer frame and the rest of the floor. Water is sprayed from the wheels up into the space between the frame and floor and since there are hols in the fabric the water gets in. Once the water gets in, it can't get out. So it starts with the entire bottom wood layer delaminating eventually working up to the top layer of wood.



This is a manufacturing defect since there is no protection against this happening. Every bullet trailer is going to have the problem. Since the vinyl covers everything, owners won't know anything is wrong until the upper layer of wood delaminates and the floor gets soft.

[Steveo57]

Been there done that! I would check very carefully for other leaks. I don't know about you but the number of times I tow in the rain is pretty small. Any water intrusion would be probably be small and I think it would have a chance to dry up.

All of the water damage I've seen is from above and it does get trapped in the floor. It stays wet because a leak from above is a steady source of moisture while a leak from underneath would only happen if you are towing in the rain.

Good luck on your repairs. I replaced mine with plywood and sealed it well. Then put down some vinyl planking flooring. Much nicer and sturdier.

[danf]

I sprayed in the wheel well to mimic road spray before I pulled up the bottom layer of wood and the wood got even wetter. Then I pulled off the bottom layer of wood to find standing water on top of the fabric. Then I sprayed again and water just comes up through the holes in the fabric. There are multiple holes along the frame rail. My guess is the fabric is riddled with holes along the entire frame. A few or more hours of towing in constant rain would just saturate the floor.


I have a short video of me spraying in the wheel well, but the system wouldn't let me post it.

[JRTJH]

The wheel wells in most "light/Xlite" trailers are "wrapped in Darco". That "thin poly film" just isn't up to the task of protecting the underlying "cardboard/thin luan" layer that is the bottom of the "sandwich floor construction"

What happens is rocks and road debris gets stuck in the tire tread, then, at highway speeds, those pebbles get slung into the Darco and put "pin-prick holes" in the film. Once that happens, it's only a matter of time until you're towing on a wet road, water saturates the film, migrates through the multiple "pin-prick holes" and, with no way out, sits on the cardboard/luan until it's rotted.

I'm facing the same issue with my Cougar and can feel the "cupping of rotted luan" under the Darco. My solution: 1/4" HDPE sheeting, cut to fit the wheelwell area, sealed with DICOR on all edges. Hopefully the thicker HDPE will protect the wheelwells from rock chips and the area won't be saturated with water (any RV's worst enemy) in the future.

What I think happens is the water gets above the Darco, with no way out, it does "it's damage" and eventually the water dissipates. Then the next "wet towing event" it happens again... It's more an accumulation of small amounts of water that do a little damage, followed by "dry wheelwells" until the next wet tow. Over the years, I think the problem creeps up on us, a little at a time until we have some reason to "actually take a critical look at the wheelwell construction" and by then, it's "OMG LOOK AT THIS!!!!!"

I believe that the way the floor is constructed with "junk materials because they are light" and then wrapped in a layer of Darco that prevents the "bucket from emptying" are the reasons that the "sandwich floor" is doomed to fail, sooner or later in almost every RV that's towed over wet roads. Then, add the real potential of a roof or sidewall leak and that makes "adding water to the bucket (darco underlayer) even more of a problem....

Years ago, RV floors were made of marine plywood. On cheaper trailers, that floor was the underside of the trailer and everything below it was exposed to the road. Back then, the underside of the marine plywood was either painted with Spar Varnish or sprayed with undercoating to seal the wood. That costs money, is heavy, so Darco became the "cheaper, lighter way"... I think that we're going to see a move back to waterproof solid floors. Maybe they won't be marine plywood, but probably a "OSB type, Strand board with waterproof glue as the substrate.

I'd say that almost anything would be better than the current sandwich floor. Foam offers no structural integrity and when you get "right down to the reality"... If we can't walk on a 1/4" OSB roof, how can we walk on a 1/4" luan/cardboard floor ??????

[danf]

I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty. The trailer is a 2016. They probably will just laugh at me and tell me to go away. Then I was going to see how much it would cost to get the floor fixed and evaluate whether to keep it. The entire floor needs to be redone. If it's too much money then I will either scrap it or fix it myself. Unbelievable for a 2016.



If I have to do it myself, my plan was to start at the back. It's a rear kitchen. I think I can take out most of the kitchen leaving the fridge. So that means the heater, the stove, the fuse panel/charger has to come out. I think I could prop up the fridge cabinet so I don't have to remove it. Get that area fixed and put back in place and then do the middle up to the bathroom. There is a slide here so I'm hoping I can fix the flooring without removing it maybe from underneath. Once that is fixed, take out the bathroom and bed frame and replace the floor in the rest of the camper. The front seems firmer, but I really don't know how bad it is up there yet. I need to take off the coroplast.



For a fix I was going to add a whole bunch of new aluminum frame members and lay marine 1/4 plywood. I can't go thicker because of the slide unless there is some play that allows me to go to 3/8 or 1/2 inch. The top seals might allow another 1/8 or 1/4. I don't know how the top of the slide is constructed. It looks like there is an inside and outside rubber seal and nothing else. I might have to move the cables.



I've also thought about using sheet metal instead of wood. I'm debating what to do in the frame voids and underneath. I'm not seeing any real reason to have a bottom sheet of wood.



The other thing is I'm trying to figure out how exactly the walls are attached. Looks like the floor sandwich sits on the trailer frame. With the bottom layer of wood rotted, that means I'm going to have to shim between the trailer frame and the aluminum floor frame. Similarly, it looks like the walls sit on top of the floor including top layer of (now rotted) wood. I'll have to shim the walls too or try to insert the new flooring under the walls.


A lot of work for a 3 year old trailer. I'm apprehensive about putting money in it, since the rest of it is built just as bad. If I do it myself, it's mostly just labor and time (that I don't have).

[Ccrew]

Originally Posted by danf

I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty.

Curious how you made out with these calls. Have a 16 month old Bullet with very similar issues

[Pearson]

Does anyone think a lawsuit can be pursued over the lame floor construction problems so many owner's are having?

Originally Posted by danf

I've got to call Keystone and the dealer again to see what they say about warranty. The trailer is a 2016. They probably will just laugh at me and tell me to go away. Then I was going to see how much it would cost to get the floor fixed and evaluate whether to keep it. The entire floor needs to be redone. If it's too much money then I will either scrap it or fix it myself. Unbelievable for a 2016.



If I have to do it myself, my plan was to start at the back. It's a rear kitchen. I think I can take out most of the kitchen leaving the fridge. So that means the heater, the stove, the fuse panel/charger has to come out. I think I could prop up the fridge cabinet so I don't have to remove it. Get that area fixed and put back in place and then do the middle up to the bathroom. There is a slide here so I'm hoping I can fix the flooring without removing it maybe from underneath. Once that is fixed, take out the bathroom and bed frame and replace the floor in the rest of the camper. The front seems firmer, but I really don't know how bad it is up there yet. I need to take off the coroplast.



For a fix I was going to add a whole bunch of new aluminum frame members and lay marine 1/4 plywood. I can't go thicker because of the slide unless there is some play that allows me to go to 3/8 or 1/2 inch. The top seals might allow another 1/8 or 1/4. I don't know how the top of the slide is constructed. It looks like there is an inside and outside rubber seal and nothing else. I might have to move the cables.



I've also thought about using sheet metal instead of wood. I'm debating what to do in the frame voids and underneath. I'm not seeing any real reason to have a bottom sheet of wood.



The other thing is I'm trying to figure out how exactly the walls are attached. Looks like the floor sandwich sits on the trailer frame. With the bottom layer of wood rotted, that means I'm going to have to shim between the trailer frame and the aluminum floor frame. Similarly, it looks like the walls sit on top of the floor including top layer of (now rotted) wood. I'll have to shim the walls too or try to insert the new flooring under the walls.


A lot of work for a 3 year old trailer. I'm apprehensive about putting money in it, since the rest of it is built just as bad. If I do it myself, it's mostly just labor and time (that I don't have).

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Pearson

Does anyone think a lawsuit can be pursued over the lame floor construction problems so many owner's are having?

First, welcome to the forum. As a new member, I'd urge you to read the community rules. You can access them by clicking on the "community rules" tab at the bottom of every forum webpage.

Here's one portion of the posting standards: "Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about services, products, vendors, or sales. Please settle your differences with the seller, provider, manufacturer, or dealer through other means but not through our community."

Our forum is not a place to call for "lawsuits against Keystone".

[LCrabtree]

Originally Posted by Steveo57

Been there done that! I would check very carefully for other leaks. I don't know about you but the number of times I tow in the rain is pretty small. Any water intrusion would be probably be small and I think it would have a chance to dry up.

All of the water damage I've seen is from above and it does get trapped in the floor. It stays wet because a leak from above is a steady source of moisture while a leak from underneath would only happen if you are towing in the rain.

Good luck on your repairs. I replaced mine with plywood and sealed it well. Then put down some vinyl planking flooring. Much nicer and sturdier.

Steve, do you have an email that I can send you a message. I have a question about spongy floor and potential repair options.

Thanks,


Larry

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by LCrabtree

Steve, do you have an email that I can send you a message. I have a question about spongy floor and potential repair options.

Thanks,


Larry

Click on the name in a post then click on "send a private message".

[Shredder]

My trailer which is a 2019 bullet 1750rk 20ft, was picked up my transport company from my driveway August 2nd, received an email August 6th that it arrived safely. Received a call September 17th that it has been repaired, floor replaced and any items associated with water damage replaced although they didn't specify what was replaced, they did say they replaced the door seal which was the cause and realigned the door. I mentioned to them there was a bubble on the slide out roof and that was patched. I am guessing since my trailer is so small that it was a fairly easy job for them compared to most. Not bad, only 6 weeks and that was during labor day week also. it now takes 7-10 days to get to the dealer. I am now waiting to see what, if any , items needing repaired by dealer. Over all, I am pleased with the way my warranty process has gone with Keystone.

[German Shepherd Guy]

'm facing the same issue with my Cougar and can feel the "cupping of rotted luan" under the Darco. My solution: 1/4" HDPE sheeting, cut to fit the wheelwell area, sealed with DICOR on all edges. Hopefully the thicker HDPE will protect the wheelwells from rock chips and the area won't be saturated with water (any RV's worst enemy) in the future.



Thanks John. I am looking at my wheel wells this week and I think you might be onto something. How are you planning on attaching it?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by German Shepherd Guy

...
Thanks John. I am looking at my wheel wells this week and I think you might be onto something. How are you planning on attaching it?

I used 1.5" self tapping 1/4" head screws, drilled them into the steel framework on each corner of the wheelwells. On a couple of places I had to drill pilot holes, but for most, the screws "self-tapped" into the steel members. Once secured, I sealed the entire periphery with DICOR sealant. I suppose I "created a new roof to check frequently" with the DICOR, but it was the sealant I had on hand. With a wet rubber glove on my hand, I smoothed the DICOR and pressed it into the seams as much as I could, so hopefully it's a waterproof layer. I'll take a few photos once the sun comes out to better explain what I did.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I used 1.5" self tapping 1/4" head screws, drilled them into the steel framework on each corner of the wheelwells. On a couple of places I had to drill pilot holes, but for most, the screws "self-tapped" into the steel members. Once secured, I sealed the entire periphery with DICOR sealant. I suppose I "created a new roof to check frequently" with the DICOR, but it was the sealant I had on hand. With a wet rubber glove on my hand, I smoothed the DICOR and pressed it into the seams as much as I could, so hopefully it's a waterproof layer. I'll take a few photos once the sun comes out to better explain what I did.

John

Why did you decide on HDPE rather than something like coroplast(sp)? I thought the latter might be easier to work with?

I think I have this situation beginning to develop. My darco is starting to look like an old worn out blue tarp. I was thinking about trying to cover the area with "belly tape" but I think a more solid surface like you're doing is a better solution.

Do you have a source for the 1/4in HDPE?
Or a source for coroplast?

Thanks
Mike

[Ccrew]

Coroplast only source I've found in black in the necessary width is to buy it from Trekwood.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by Ccrew

Coroplast only source I've found in black in the necessary width is to buy it from Trekwood.

Thanks for the source CCREW. While I probably won't use the coroplast for this project, I'm sure it will handy to have for future projects.

Mike

[OutbackToy]

What if you just sprayed the wheel wells with an undercoating product, like Kendall Coat. I used to use it back in the day to undercoat cars and prevent rust.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by mikec557

John

Why did you decide on HDPE rather than something like coroplast(sp)? I thought the latter might be easier to work with?

I think I have this situation beginning to develop. My darco is starting to look like an old worn out blue tarp. I was thinking about trying to cover the area with "belly tape" but I think a more solid surface like you're doing is a better solution.

Do you have a source for the 1/4in HDPE?
Or a source for coroplast?

Thanks
Mike

Coroplast, if you've pulled a piece and looked at it, is about 0.25mm (paper thin) thick plastic that's molded into a corrugated sheet that's about 1/8 to 3/16 inch thick. . The structural strength is essentially not more than the 0.25mm plastic can "defend". In other words, not a lot more "defense against rocks thrown from the tire tread" than the DARCO that's already there, pierced with thousands of tiny holes that allow the moisture to reach the luan floor.

So, HDPE 1/4" thick sheeting is SUBSTANTIALLY stronger than the coroplast and capable of preventing rocks from knocking holes in the wheelwell covering.

For me, I've got the extra payload capacity in my Cougar that I can afford to "install 40 pounds of HDPE sheeting". If I were trying to conserve my trailer payload, I might have considered coroplast and "hoped it worked"...

I would have installed 20 ga steel sheeting if I had the tools to fabricate wheelwell liners, but, for me, that's significant "overkill for what's needed" and substantially more weight than I wanted to add to the trailer.

In short, to answer your question, Coroplast, IMHO simply isn't strong enough to be used as a "wheelwell liner" where rocks would likely destroy it in short order. I wanted a more permanent and stronger material to make the repair.