Outside Walls Bulging or Dipping In

[M&RBegeske]

We own a 2022 Keystone Cougar 357UMR purchased brand new in February 2023. We have had this unit in to the dealership almost as often as we camped in it last season due to a variety of issues that arose, including the bedroom slide mechanism having to be replaced! That broke on the first night of a 5 night vacation! Fortunately, all issues were covered under warranty and fixed.

I had noticed when we first got the unit that there was a slight “bulging” in the non-camp side exterior wall of the unit under the back window. It wasn’t very big, but I did notice it and made mention of it prior to leaving the dealership (and the few times we had to bring it back in). I am wondering if anyone has ever seen this before. I have attached pictures to show what is happening. I have found several more areas on the rig (both sides) where this appears to be happening. I have never seen this before on an older rig, let alone on a brand new one. The one photo of the kitchen slide doesn’t show the two areas that are bowing in very well, but I wasn’t able to upload the video of that section. I did contact Keystone about the issue as I wanted to make sure it would be covered under warranty, even if the warranty expires. The rig is back in the dealership to have them take a good look and, hopefully, diagnose the issue(s) so it can be fixed.

[GaryUT]

Most of them look like the studs showing through the filon and is considered normal.

The ones under the window look like water has been leaking around the window and the wall has delaminated.


Gary

[JRTJH]

It looks like the luan plywood used as a backer under the FILON fiberglass has either shrunk a bit or the plies have separated and have allowed the exterior to rise/fall along the butt joints of the luan.

Hopefully, your trailer is still under the 3 year structural warranty. If so, I'd make an appointment with a KNOWLEDGEABLE Keystone dealership to have it inspected. Since the warranty is "time limited" you really don't want to play around with an "unconcerned or not interested dealership" or one that doesn't take the inspection seriously. If you could imagine making an appointment to have it checked and when you take it in, the dealership assigns the work to their newest employee, the one that's been washing trailers for delivery for the past 6 months, and he determines, "Oh, it's OK, they all sort of look like that in places"....

While this may be "normal" I'd have a dealership verify that. Even if they don't find anything wrong, at least you've identified the issue "within the warranty time frame" so that if something happens, say 3 or 4 months after the warranty expires and you discover a crack in the FILON or some significant damage, you've got documentation proving that the issue occurred while in warranty and the dealer didn't diagnose the problem correctly at that time......

Now, all that said, the sidewalls are "vacuum laminated" and from the interior to the exterior are made in this sequence:

1. interior luan with vinyl surface
2. 1.5" rigid foam surrounding aluminum frame
3. exterior luan (1/8" single layer) in most Keystone brands and two 1/8" overlapping layers (to prevent the seams from buckling) in the more expensive Keystone brands. Keep in mind that all "ultra-lite brands) will avoid thicker/heavier construction, so they're all "single layer luan".
4. Exterior FILON surface.

In some trailer brands, the exterior luan has been replaced by a more waterproof material similar to Azdel (which is a composite waterproof material). Since those types of materials are more expensive, they typically are not seen in sidewalls, but rather in RV laminated flooring. Around 2022 and for a few years before, there was a lot of "industry issues" with rotting, water damaged floors and lower sidewalls, but i don't believe Keystone ever adapted to using that material in the sidewalls. Most of the sidewalls are still "single thickness luan plywood panels" behind the FILON exterior panel.

IMO, I'd at least identify the issue and get it on record with Keystone that the condition exists, whether the dealership determines that it's "normal and all of them do that eventually" or possibly finds a more serious issue.....

[M&RBegeske]

Thanks, John. That's great information!

I did call Keystone and talk to them about this issue and that the one by the window has been there since we bought it. The smaller ones are newer. I had noticed the one by the window when we did the walk around and mentioned it then, as well as the several times we had to bring the unit back in for repairs (a whole other story!). They did tell me that any issues would be covered since we brought it up and had it documented prior to the warranty expiring. Since we purchased it in 2022, the three-year structural warranty should cover it. I was worried the limited one-year warranty would be the issue, which was about to expire when I called.

Keystone told me to bring it in to our local dealership (who has been VERY good at working with us on the numerous other issues) to have them do an in-depth look. The service rep we met with (and who knows us from previous visits) said he's never seen the degree to which this is happening on our rig, especially on a brand new rig. He went on top and did a walk of the roof and didn't see any areas where water would be the cause, which is good to hear. We are also hoping it's not caused by any frame issues, especially since Keystone no longer makes this particular unit. The kitchen slide doesn't have the "bulging" issue, but has two areas where it is "bowing" in. The picture of this area doesn't show it well, but I wasn't able to upload the video for it.

[JRTJH]

On the Outback line, there is a single layer luan backer, so there will likely be a "bulge or FILON ripple" where two luan panels are butted together. In theory the FILON should mask those small variations at the butt joints. In reality, there's often just enough space to cause the FILON to ripple and it's visible. I think (just my theory) that with a single luan panel, behind the butt joint there's nothing but the rigid foam core, and as the sun/heat bakes that open space at the butt joint, the foam shrinks away and the FILON follows it, creating the ripple.

My trailer has several places where this is visible on the FILON surface, but IMO, is not any cause for alarm.

On the more expensive lines, there are two luan layers with butt joints overlapping the panels (top layer butt joints are located in the center of the lower luan panel). These "staggered butt joints" eliminate any "FILON/rigid foam contact" and eliminate those spaces where the foam can shrink away.

So, the FILON ripples are seldom seen on Montana, Alpine, Avalanche lines. Of course, that also adds a significant amount of gross weight, which is a disadvantage in an ultra-light trailer. I'd suspect this single/double luan layer decision is more of a compromise for reduced weight with no significant increase in reliability issues. In other words, it's more of an appearance issue than a structural issue.

But, it never hurts to make sure there's nothing else going on "below the surface"....

[M&RBegeske]

Thanks, again, John,

I guess it surprises me to see it on a brand new unit. Though it did come from Michigan and had sat on their lot for much of 2022 and they had a ton of snow that year. This particular unit is considered part of their "Premium" Cougar line, which is a step below their Alpine, Montana, and Avalanche lines.

Did you trailer have these issues visible when you purchased it? Or did they appear over time? I'm curious as this unit was brand new, so maybe it was just something that wasn't paid much attention to when it left the factory and the original dealership just didn't care and wanted to off-load it. *shrugging shoulders*

In any event, I appreciate all the information! We will just have to wait and see what the dealership finds out.

[M&RBegeske]

Just a quick update, our unit is a the dealership, and they have submitted it to Keystone. We are just waiting for a response from Keystone. The dealership classified the areas as “buckling”, which makes more sense than “bulging”, I guess. Hopefully we’ll hear back soon and find out what needs to be done.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by M&RBegeske

Just a quick update, our unit is a the dealership, and they have submitted it to Keystone. We are just waiting for a response from Keystone. The dealership classified the areas as “buckling”, which makes more sense than “bulging”, I guess. Hopefully we’ll hear back soon and find out what needs to be done.

Good Luck, but don't be surprised if Keystone determines it to be "cosmetic" with no action required. You "MIGHT" get lucky and they add a statement that they will consider an out of warranty repair since you identified it during the warranty period. (In other words, a possible reconsideration later, but nothing now).....

[M&RBegeske]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Good Luck, but don't be surprised if Keystone determines it to be "cosmetic" with no action required. You "MIGHT" get lucky and they add a statement that they will consider an out of warranty repair since you identified it during the warranty period. (In other words, a possible reconsideration later, but nothing now).....

I can see it being simply “cosmetic”, especially if it were only in one spot, however, with it being in, at least, three other spots and in varying locations, it seems a bit more than cosmetic. Same for the two areas on either side of the window in the kitchen slide. I may be naive, but I don’t know what would cause a solid wall to “bow” like that, unless there’s a defect of some kind in the construction. In any event, it’s a waiting game to see. We have looked into other options if Keystone denies it.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by M&RBegeske

I can see it being simply “cosmetic”, especially if it were only in one spot, however, with it being in, at least, three other spots and in varying locations, it seems a bit more than cosmetic. ....

The luan backing is 9'x4' sheets. There will be "luan butt joints" at equal distances along the entire trailer wall. On your trailer with a "FILON sidewall" approximately 40' long. Depending on how they laid the sheets on the aluminum framework (to maximize coverage with minimum sheet cuts around the slide openings) you'll have roughly 10 or 11 "luan butt joints" on each sidewall.

I fully understand that you're concerned that the trailer "doesn't look like anticipated" and it's a major investment for you. That said, all I was attempting to do is to state that Keystone, in all probability, is going to consider it "cosmetic" and close the case without any repair being authorized. And, if you "step outside the box" for a minute, do you really want someone "drilling holes, pumping in more foam or cutting out small sections of the sidewall to "patch and attempt color match" (which causes a seam to allow water intrusion) on a sidewall that's otherwise "waterproof, functional and undamaged other than a bulge ? They are likely going to take the approach that the "cure" is worse than the disease and just offer an "olive branch" saying something like, "It's cosmetic, but if it gets worse after the warranty expires and does cause damage or affect function, inform the dealer's service department and we'll consider the problem again."

ADDED: The video at this link will show you how the wall luan sheets are laid on the frame during the lamination process. Around the 0:57 mark shows the sheets being laid side by side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqyUr1KQ4-c

[M&RBegeske]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The luan backing is 9'x4' sheets. There will be "luan butt joints" at equal distances along the entire trailer wall. On your trailer with a "FILON sidewall" approximately 40' long. Depending on how they laid the sheets on the aluminum framework (to maximize coverage with minimum sheet cuts around the slide openings) you'll have roughly 10 or 11 "luan butt joints" on each sidewall.

I fully understand that you're concerned that the trailer "doesn't look like anticipated" and it's a major investment for you. That said, all I was attempting to do is to state that Keystone, in all probability, is going to consider it "cosmetic" and close the case without any repair being authorized. And, if you "step outside the box" for a minute, do you really want someone "drilling holes, pumping in more foam or cutting out small sections of the sidewall to "patch and attempt color match" (which causes a seam to allow water intrusion) on a sidewall that's otherwise "waterproof, functional and undamaged other than a bulge ? They are likely going to take the approach that the "cure" is worse than the disease and just offer an "olive branch" saying something like, "It's cosmetic, but if it gets worse after the warranty expires and does cause damage or affect function, inform the dealer's service department and we'll consider the problem again."

ADDED: The video at this link will show you how the wall luan sheets are laid on the frame during the lamination process. Around the 0:57 mark shows the sheets being laid side by side.

Thanks for the video. I also appreciate all the information you are providing. It gives me something to research.

And, you're right, I don't want them drilling holes anywhere or trying to paint match, since it could make it look worse that it already does. Not sure if it would make a difference that Keystone no longer even makes this specific rig or that they've changed their paint/decal scheme.

It's just frustrating that I know those other bulging/buckling areas are going to progressively get worse, just like the original spot has. And we don't even know if it's water intrusion or not. We've not been told by the dealership what they believe the issue/cause is. The other frustrating part is that our rig has been in the dealership so many times already for various issues, big and small. I have all the work orders for what was done, such as the kitchen slide (which houses the refrigerator, TV, and pedestal power outlet) needing to be re-wired because nothing worked (despite being inverted outlets and having Keystone's 600i-L solar package installed) and the bedroom slide mechanism needing replacement because the teeth were so badly chewed up (you wouldn't have thought the rig was brand new).

Again, I appreciate all your insight and information on what the issue might be. Hopefully we'll hear back from Keystone very soon.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by M&RBegeske

...
It's just frustrating that I know those other bulging/buckling areas are going to progressively get worse, just like the original spot has. And we don't even know if it's water intrusion or not. We've not been told by the dealership what they believe the issue/cause is. The other frustrating part is that our rig has been in the dealership so many times already for various issues, big and small. I have all the work orders for what was done, such as the kitchen slide (which houses the refrigerator, TV, and pedestal power outlet) needing to be re-wired because nothing worked (despite being inverted outlets and having Keystone's 600i-L solar package installed) and the bedroom slide mechanism needing replacement because the teeth were so badly chewed up (you wouldn't have thought the rig was brand new).
...)

It sounds like you starting to let the history of multiple problems overwhelm you....

STAY FOCUSED !!!!!

Right now, the issue facing you is bulges in the FILON, separate it from all the "past issues".... Deal with and address the CURRENT issue, not the past history. Anytime we tend to "lump everything together" we tend to lose the capacity to make wise decisions based on the specific issue and that leads to frustration or a sense of helplessness leading to anger, resentment and worse.

Stay focused on the current problem, if the dealership hasn't told you what they "think is the cause of the bulges" then "get in their face and ask the specific question"... If they know, they should be happy to tell you. If they don't know, they should also share that information. Then you can ask them their specific plans for determining the answer and WHEN they plan to have that answer.....

But, lumping everything together will only lead you to a place where you don't know which way to turn...

STAY FOCUSED and good luck.

[M&RBegeske]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

It sounds like you starting to let the history of multiple problems overwhelm you....

STAY FOCUSED !!!!!

Right now, the issue facing you is bulges in the FILON, separate it from all the "past issues".... Deal with and address the CURRENT issue, not the past history. Anytime we tend to "lump everything together" we tend to lose the capacity to make wise decisions based on the specific issue and that leads to frustration or a sense of helplessness leading to anger, resentment and worse.

Stay focused on the current problem, if the dealership hasn't told you what they "think is the cause of the bulges" then "get in their face and ask the specific question"... If they know, they should be happy to tell you. If they don't know, they should also share that information. Then you can ask them their specific plans for determining the answer and WHEN they plan to have that answer.....

But, lumping everything together will only lead you to a place where you don't know which way to turn...

STAY FOCUSED and good luck.

Thanks, John.