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Old 07-10-2022, 03:38 AM   #81
Bob N
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The Saga Continues

I first asked the question about getting various pieces of equipment with my new Cougar 25RDS on May 25. I thank all of you that replied and helped me understand that I got shorted. It is July 10 and I am still waiting. Finally made some progress with an exceptional young lady in Keystone owner relations. Also, I finally got my TPMS display for the Cougar that I took possession of April 08, 2022. Programmed it, but there is no repeater/signal booster installed. Paid for this with the Towing with Confidence Package. Got the Goodyear Tires and the TPMS sensors are installed, but no repeater. It works great when you are standing next to the axles, but no so good in the cab of the tow vehicle. I am hassling about this too. My dealer was WORTHLESS on these issues as well as other problems. Keystone wasn't much better until I got this latest diligent and caring young lady to help me. Hopefully I will get what I paid for...eventually. I love the Cougar trailer, but loathe my dealer for their incompetence, and am not real high on the Keystone factory either. I bought the 600i-L Solarflex package and NO ONE at the dealer could tell me anything about it. I am learning everything about my trailer on my own. Labor, supply chain, new computer systems blah blah blah. The excuse du jour was getting old. Real problem is incompetent management that doesn't care about service after the sale. I dread the day when I have a serious problem. Will probably take it to another Keystone dealer. OK, rant over. My positives are the trailer itself. All other negatives are MFG/dealer infrastructure. Fixing things myself as long as I can. Good luck to all of you ladies and gentlemen out there. I still love my 2022Cougar in spite of all else!
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:17 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bob N View Post
I first asked the question about getting various pieces of equipment with my new Cougar 25RDS on May 25. I thank all of you that replied and helped me understand that I got shorted. It is July 10 and I am still waiting. Finally made some progress with an exceptional young lady in Keystone owner relations. Also, I finally got my TPMS display for the Cougar that I took possession of April 08, 2022. Programmed it, but there is no repeater/signal booster installed. Paid for this with the Towing with Confidence Package. Got the Goodyear Tires and the TPMS sensors are installed, but no repeater. It works great when you are standing next to the axles, but no so good in the cab of the tow vehicle. I am hassling about this too. My dealer was WORTHLESS on these issues as well as other problems. Keystone wasn't much better until I got this latest diligent and caring young lady to help me. Hopefully I will get what I paid for...eventually. I love the Cougar trailer, but loathe my dealer for their incompetence, and am not real high on the Keystone factory either. I bought the 600i-L Solarflex package and NO ONE at the dealer could tell me anything about it. I am learning everything about my trailer on my own. Labor, supply chain, new computer systems blah blah blah. The excuse du jour was getting old. Real problem is incompetent management that doesn't care about service after the sale. I dread the day when I have a serious problem. Will probably take it to another Keystone dealer. OK, rant over. My positives are the trailer itself. All other negatives are MFG/dealer infrastructure. Fixing things myself as long as I can. Good luck to all of you ladies and gentlemen out there. I still love my 2022Cougar in spite of all else!


I'm sorry to hear of your continued troubles. Your dealer should be running point for you (if they aren't the ones that shortchanged you in the first place). We always stress the importance of the dealer you purchase from and this is a prime example. I'm glad the Keystone rep is stepping in to help because many times they want the dealer to communicate with them. Sounds like they might know this dealer isn't up to snuff.

Your TPMS is operating just like they will without the repeater. The older monitors didn't usually require one but when they went to the newer ones TST told me they were designed to require one. Without the repeater I can see my front 2 tires but the back and spare just blink blank. Since working with Keystone directly is like working with the fed govt. when trying to get parts I wonder if that helpful young lady might let you get the repeater from TST (great customer service) and reimburse you? Might save you a month or two of headaches. You dealer should have made sure all those things were there and functional prior to you taking possession then showed them to you on your PDI walk through. Good look on getting it all taken care of.
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Old 07-10-2022, 10:42 AM   #83
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I feel that way about my 2021 Cougar 25RDS. They had it on the lot, but we wanted thinks like automatic levelers added. Two people at my dealership - Camping World of Lake City - really made a difference. Emily Couillette runs the parts counter, but frankly she should be running the dealership. Everybody come to her with questions and she always seemed to know the answer. And their lead tech is Adam, he did our check out, and everything on the rig has worked flawlessly for nearly 18 months - especially the mods he installed. I had a salesman there who couldn't tell the truth even by accident, but if you are anywhere near there, Emily and Adam will make sure you are satisfied with your rig.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:26 AM   #84
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I feel that way about my 2021 Cougar 25RDS. They had it on the lot, but we wanted thinks like automatic levelers added. Two people at my dealership - Camping World of Lake City - really made a difference. Emily Couillette runs the parts counter, but frankly she should be running the dealership. Everybody come to her with questions and she always seemed to know the answer. And their lead tech is Adam, he did our check out, and everything on the rig has worked flawlessly for nearly 18 months - especially the mods he installed. I had a salesman there who couldn't tell the truth even by accident, but if you are anywhere near there, Emily and Adam will make sure you are satisfied with your rig.

I was in there a few times a couple of years ago and they seemed like a pretty good place. Met quite a few folks as well as the GM I believe. Can't remember their names but have them in a folder in the RV somewhere I'm sure.
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Old 07-12-2022, 06:40 AM   #85
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Bob N...sory to hear you have to go through this with your dealer. Same trouble here..looks like they all do a good job selling and goes downhill after. Finally got some missing parts for our trailer and can't wait for some cooler weather to get back to the campgrounds. Of course this may be in November!!
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Old 07-27-2022, 10:39 AM   #86
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The 3.5 liter eco boost pulls like the trailer isn't even back there. Never a problem getting up to speed, and we see about 10.5 mpg at 63mph. We put an Equalizer WDH on it and our dealer tweaked it to a perfectly level combination. We towed about 6,000 miles last year on Trailer King OEM tires, but I replaced them this spring with Goodyear Endurance. Like Bubba Shoots said, it is tongue heavy (we also have the 2nd A/C). It takes some moving things around to get it down to about 12%. Almost no sway...if I detect any, then I know my tongue weight needs more adjustment. All in all, it is easy to tow and I've never had an issue with it.
I also have the 3.5 liter eco boost and have been trying to lighten the tongue of the trailer. What have you done to lighten it? I've thought about moving the propane bottles to the back while I tow which would reduce 100+ pounds. What things have you done?

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Old 07-27-2022, 11:24 AM   #87
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I also have the 3.5 liter eco boost and have been trying to lighten the tongue of the trailer. What have you done to lighten it? I've thought about moving the propane bottles to the back while I tow which would reduce 100+ pounds. What things have you done?

Scott.
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100+ lbs of propane? What tanks did you replace the two 30 lb OEM tanks with?
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Old 07-27-2022, 11:38 AM   #88
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100+ lbs of propane? What tanks did you replace the two 30 lb OEM tanks with?
A standard 30lb propane tank weighs about 25lbs empty and 55lbs full. So two full 30lb propane tanks weight 110ish lbs, all of which is on the tongue. If I move those to the back of the trailer (maybe under the dinette seats) while towing it will make the tongue 110+ lbs lighter.

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Old 07-28-2022, 04:22 PM   #89
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Hi Scott

First, I carry two e-bikes on a "trailer approved" bike rack on the back of the camper. So that's probably 140 pounds counting the rack. (The batteries are in the camper). Inside the camper, we typically carry 6-8 gallons of fresh water in 1 gallons jugs. Those are under the dinette on the door side. Along the back, we have a couple of heavy backup power cables, and a set of free weights. On the road side, we have the ice maker and probably a couple of handles of booze. If I don't like what I see on the gauge, I also put some patio blocks along the rear wall of the dinette storage.

Up front we threw that joke of a mattress away the day we got home and put in a Brooklyn Bedding 110 pound mattress. So that changed things a bit. I also built slide out drawers into the underbed storage so that added some pounds. We have two 30 pound propane tanks, one battery, and a second A/C.


BTW I use both Better Weigh, and I have a Sherline LM 2000. I'm extremely careful to monitor the tongue weight so that I stay within the payload limits of the TV.
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Old 07-28-2022, 07:29 PM   #90
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Hi Scott

First, I carry two e-bikes on a "trailer approved" bike rack on the back of the camper. So that's probably 140 pounds counting the rack. (The batteries are in the camper). Inside the camper, we typically carry 6-8 gallons of fresh water in 1 gallons jugs. Those are under the dinette on the door side. Along the back, we have a couple of heavy backup power cables, and a set of free weights. On the road side, we have the ice maker and probably a couple of handles of booze. If I don't like what I see on the gauge, I also put some patio blocks along the rear wall of the dinette storage.

Up front we threw that joke of a mattress away the day we got home and put in a Brooklyn Bedding 110 pound mattress. So that changed things a bit. I also built slide out drawers into the underbed storage so that added some pounds. We have two 30 pound propane tanks, one battery, and a second A/C.


BTW I use both Better Weigh, and I have a Sherline LM 2000. I'm extremely careful to monitor the tongue weight so that I stay within the payload limits of the TV.
I'm having a bit of a conundrum trying to understand how you're helping the lack of tow vehicle payload by adding free weights, patio blocks, moving batteries & propane tanks & hauling jugs of water.
If you're that close to the max payload of the vehicle how is adding weight possibly helping.
I didn't major in physics, but I'm fairly certain adding 100lbs to the bumper will not remove 100lbs from the tongue.
Too little truck is too little truck! Only cure is more truck or less rv!
"Can you slpain Lucy why we hauling all these rocks!"
Oh it's to help lightening the tongue weight!
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Old 07-29-2022, 07:52 AM   #91
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I'm having a bit of a conundrum trying to understand how you're helping the lack of tow vehicle payload by adding free weights, patio blocks, moving batteries & propane tanks & hauling jugs of water.
If you're that close to the max payload of the vehicle how is adding weight possibly helping.
I didn't major in physics, but I'm fairly certain adding 100lbs to the bumper will not remove 100lbs from the tongue.
Too little truck is too little truck! Only cure is more truck or less rv!
"Can you slpain Lucy why we hauling all these rocks!"
Oh it's to help lightening the tongue weight!
Hi. There are two important numbers/limits for the TV related to towing - Towing capacity and payload capacity. Adding 100lbs to the back of the trailer does increase the weight of the trailer by 100lbs but it also reduces the tongue weight due to the lever arm created by the trailer axle (think of a teeter-totter with the axle of the trailer as the fulcrum). On my truck, towing capacity is 13000lbs and payload capacity is 1600lbs. My trailer is 7000lbs loaded, so I can easily afford to add 100lbs to the trailer to reduce the tongue weight (seen as payload) by 30-50lbs depending on where the weight is added.

Example: 30ft trailer (tongue to tail) with wheels 10ft from back. Moving the propane tanks (100lbs) from the tongue of the trailer to the very back of the trailer reduces the tongue weight by 150lbs (100lbs for the weight itself + 50lbs reduction due to the lever arm affect).

"Hauling all these rocks" is exactly to lighten the tongue weight which reduces the payload on the truck.
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Old 07-29-2022, 08:16 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Retired_at_55 View Post
Hi. There are two important numbers/limits for the TV related to towing - Towing capacity and payload capacity. Adding 100lbs to the back of the trailer does increase the weight of the trailer by 100lbs but it also reduces the tongue weight due to the lever arm created by the trailer axle (think of a teeter-totter with the axle of the trailer as the fulcrum). On my truck, towing capacity is 13000lbs and payload capacity is 1600lbs. My trailer is 7000lbs loaded, so I can easily afford to add 100lbs to the trailer to reduce the tongue weight (seen as payload) by 30-50lbs depending on where the weight is added.

Example: 30ft trailer (tongue to tail) with wheels 10ft from back. Moving the propane tanks (100lbs) from the tongue of the trailer to the very back of the trailer reduces the tongue weight by 150lbs (100lbs for the weight itself + 50lbs reduction due to the lever arm affect).

"Hauling all these rocks" is exactly to lighten the tongue weight which reduces the payload on the truck.
To be quite honest in the rv world there's only one of those numbers that means anything to you, the trucks payload. That 16k tow rating was arrived at by the manufacturer towing low profile utility type trailers where all the load could be placed directly over the axles considerably lightening the tongue/pin weights. There's no possibility that truck could ever tow a rv weighing 16k lbs regardless of what the manufacturer says.. Unfortunately majority of the heavy weight of rvs is already fixed in place & adding a dab here or there you're still going to wind up with 10-15% of the rv weight on the tongue.
You stated 7000lbs = 900+lbs tongue weight + 100+/-lbs for the WDH + everyone/everything in/on that truck all subtracted from the posted payload on the drivers door jamb of that truck.
If adding weight makes it work for you then by all means add some more then head to the scales!
But for all the newbies reading this post DO NOT do this at home, as already stated the only option for a truck with too little payload is more truck or less rv.
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Old 07-29-2022, 08:23 AM   #93
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Hi. There are two important numbers/limits for the TV related to towing - Towing capacity and payload capacity. Adding 100lbs to the back of the trailer does increase the weight of the trailer by 100lbs but it also reduces the tongue weight due to the lever arm created by the trailer axle (think of a teeter-totter with the axle of the trailer as the fulcrum). On my truck, towing capacity is 13000lbs and payload capacity is 1600lbs. My trailer is 7000lbs loaded, so I can easily afford to add 100lbs to the trailer to reduce the tongue weight (seen as payload) by 30-50lbs depending on where the weight is added.

Example: 30ft trailer (tongue to tail) with wheels 10ft from back. Moving the propane tanks (100lbs) from the tongue of the trailer to the very back of the trailer reduces the tongue weight by 150lbs (100lbs for the weight itself + 50lbs reduction due to the lever arm affect).

"Hauling all these rocks" is exactly to lighten the tongue weight which reduces the payload on the truck.
To be quite honest in the rv world there's only one of those numbers that means anything to you, the trucks payload. That 16k tow rating was arrived at by the manufacturer towing low profile utility type trailers where all the load could be placed directly over the axles considerably lightening the tongue/pin weights. There's no possibility that truck could ever tow a rv weighing 16k lbs regardless of what the manufacturer says & safely be within any of the trucks posted weight limits..
I do understand the teeter toter effect, I also know the axles are not center between the ball & the bumper, it's always more to the rear, so in that scenario the bigger guy is/will always be sitting on the tongue.
Unfortunately majority of the heavy weight of rvs is already fixed in place & adding a dab here or there you're still going to wind up with 10-15% of the rv weight on the tongue.
You stated 7000lbs @ 13% = 900+lbs tongue weight + 100+/-lbs for the WDH + everyone/everything in/on that truck all subtracted from the posted payload on the drivers door jamb of that truck.
If adding weight makes it work for you then by all means add some more then head to the scales!
But for all the newbies reading this post DO NOT do this at home, as already stated the only option for a truck with too little payload is more truck or less rv.
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Old 07-29-2022, 09:47 AM   #94
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To be quite honest in the rv world there's only one of those numbers that means anything to you, the trucks payload. That 16k tow rating was arrived at by the manufacturer towing low profile utility type trailers where all the load could be placed directly over the axles considerably lightening the tongue/pin weights. There's no possibility that truck could ever tow a rv weighing 16k lbs regardless of what the manufacturer says & safely be within any of the trucks posted weight limits..
I do understand the teeter toter effect, I also know the axles are not center between the ball & the bumper, it's always more to the rear, so in that scenario the bigger guy is/will always be sitting on the tongue.
Unfortunately majority of the heavy weight of rvs is already fixed in place & adding a dab here or there you're still going to wind up with 10-15% of the rv weight on the tongue.
You stated 7000lbs @ 13% = 900+lbs tongue weight + 100+/-lbs for the WDH + everyone/everything in/on that truck all subtracted from the posted payload on the drivers door jamb of that truck.
If adding weight makes it work for you then by all means add some more then head to the scales!
But for all the newbies reading this post DO NOT do this at home, as already stated the only option for a truck with too little payload is more truck or less rv.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I was just answering the original question "how does adding weight reduce payload" and showing that is does. How close to payload limit a person wants to be when towing a trailer is up to each individual, and being overloaded is not the way you want to be.
That being said, where you put weight in your trailer can have a large impact on the tongue weight.
With my loaded trailer and truck (everything I take except for the wife), I am 150lbs below the payload rating on the door jamb sticker as weighted on a CAT scale. Moving propane tanks to the back and/or storing drinking water at the back instead of the front of the trailer reduces that by another 150-200lbs and now I have more margin on the payload (so I can take my wife and still have plenty of margin).
BTW, the reason I originally posted on this thread is that my trailer as equipped is heavy at the tongue (14.5-15%), so I'd like to reduce that percentage a bit regardless of the truck payload issue.
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Old 09-22-2022, 04:50 AM   #95
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I first asked the question about getting various pieces of equipment with my new Cougar 25RDS on May 25. I thank all of you that replied and helped me understand that I got shorted. It is July 10 and I am still waiting. Finally made some progress with an exceptional young lady in Keystone owner relations. Also, I finally got my TPMS display for the Cougar that I took possession of April 08, 2022. Programmed it, but there is no repeater/signal booster installed. Paid for this with the Towing with Confidence Package. Got the Goodyear Tires and the TPMS sensors are installed, but no repeater. It works great when you are standing next to the axles, but no so good in the cab of the tow vehicle. I am hassling about this too. My dealer was WORTHLESS on these issues as well as other problems. Keystone wasn't much better until I got this latest diligent and caring young lady to help me. Hopefully I will get what I paid for...eventually. I love the Cougar trailer, but loathe my dealer for their incompetence, and am not real high on the Keystone factory either. I bought the 600i-L Solarflex package and NO ONE at the dealer could tell me anything about it. I am learning everything about my trailer on my own. Labor, supply chain, new computer systems blah blah blah. The excuse du jour was getting old. Real problem is incompetent management that doesn't care about service after the sale. I dread the day when I have a serious problem. Will probably take it to another Keystone dealer. OK, rant over. My positives are the trailer itself. All other negatives are MFG/dealer infrastructure. Fixing things myself as long as I can. Good luck to all of you ladies and gentlemen out there. I still love my 2022Cougar in spite of all else!
Quick update: On Saturday, 9-17-2022 I finally got the last piece of the equipment that I was shorted at delivery on April 8. It was a loooooong, hard fought battle, but with the help of my new best friend at Keystone Customer Relations, they finally made me whole on my purchase. They trickled the items in, and after each delivery, I had to tell them what they still owed me. The last item was the signal booster/ repeater for the TPMS that I purchased in the "Towing with Confidence" add on package. Now I finally have a working TPMS. Now, on to other warranty issues. Thanks to all that responded to my inquiry on this forum. When I mentioned it to Customer Relations, they kinda changed their tune and started fulfilling their commitment.
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Old 09-22-2022, 06:42 AM   #96
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Quick update: On Saturday, 9-17-2022 I finally got the last piece of the equipment that I was shorted at delivery on April 8. It was a loooooong, hard fought battle, but with the help of my new best friend at Keystone Customer Relations, they finally made me whole on my purchase. They trickled the items in, and after each delivery, I had to tell them what they still owed me. The last item was the signal booster/ repeater for the TPMS that I purchased in the "Towing with Confidence" add on package. Now I finally have a working TPMS. Now, on to other warranty issues. Thanks to all that responded to my inquiry on this forum. When I mentioned it to Customer Relations, they kinda changed their tune and started fulfilling their commitment.
Glad that you're finally getting the response you deserve from the dealer and from Keystone. As for the "influence this forum has on Keystone", about the only thing I can imagine is the sheer number of Keystone owners who answer questions at campgrounds like, "I see you have a Keystone, how do you like it?"....

The response someone gets to questions like that can easily sway someone toward or away from a product, so the forum does have "influence" but it's from a "owner/user vantage" not from a "manufacturer vantage".....

Again, happy that you are getting things in order. Happy camping !!!!!
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Old 09-25-2022, 06:24 PM   #97
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25RDSWE troubles

We bought our 25RDSWE 4 months ago. We love the floor plan but...we have had issues. That silly computer that runs everything (slide, awning, lights, heat/AC system, water heater etc etc) crashed about 5 times a day. The dealer tried twice to fix it - no luck. Finally my wife got ahold of the computer company who sent a fix link which finally fixed it. This took about 2 months to get it right. The refrigerator died on camping night one. That took about 2 weeks in the shop (thermal fuse - not user friendly replaceable. The first time I used the shower the glass coordinator handle fell off. This was another week in the shop. Just a few weeks ago I notice a large anaconda sized bubble in the roof material (6 ft long 4 inches wide). We again took it to the shop. Keystone calls this "normal" and denied it was an issue. Camping World charged me $35 for diagnosis because Keystone denied the claim....geez! On and on it goes with poor workmanship. I would never buy this trailer if I saw this huge bubble on the roof. So, I guess my trailer is now devalued because of this gross bubble. Other than all these issues we like the trailer but we sure do not like the quality of it or Keystone not stepping up to make it right.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:35 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by therealsherlock View Post
We bought our 25RDSWE 4 months ago. We love the floor plan but...we have had issues. That silly computer that runs everything (slide, awning, lights, heat/AC system, water heater etc etc) crashed about 5 times a day. The dealer tried twice to fix it - no luck. Finally my wife got ahold of the computer company who sent a fix link which finally fixed it. This took about 2 months to get it right. The refrigerator died on camping night one. That took about 2 weeks in the shop (thermal fuse - not user friendly replaceable. The first time I used the shower the glass coordinator handle fell off. This was another week in the shop. Just a few weeks ago I notice a large anaconda sized bubble in the roof material (6 ft long 4 inches wide). We again took it to the shop. Keystone calls this "normal" and denied it was an issue. Camping World charged me $35 for diagnosis because Keystone denied the claim....geez! On and on it goes with poor workmanship. I would never buy this trailer if I saw this huge bubble on the roof. So, I guess my trailer is now devalued because of this gross bubble. Other than all these issues we like the trailer but we sure do not like the quality of it or Keystone not stepping up to make it right.
I'm sorry for all of your problems too. My in-Command wall unit quit on my first trip also. The dealership finally got it fixed after a long stay in the shop for that and other issues. It spent six of my first seven weeks of ownership in the shop. The dealership said that they traced the problem to a broken wire, but they replaced the entire unit anyway. The system of pursuing warranty issues with the dealer and then with Keystone is cumbersome and quite frankly pretty convoluted and stupid. I just checked my roof yesterday and luckily, no "anacondas" living there. I still have some issues with my trailer, but none that prevent me from using it. I plan to get it into the shop next week, in hopes that I can get it back by thanksgiving. Good luck with your trials and tribulations. All dealers are the same... sell it and forget it!
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Bob - OKC, OK
2020 F-250 4WD Crew Cab
6.7ltr Power Stroke
2022 Cougar 25RDS with
600i-L Package
Blue Ox Track Pro WDH
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