Save me $65,000 ! ! ! All welcome !

[ResearchPhase]

Hello All,

I am a new member. I could have stopped in the "new member" forum but I wanted to get straight to the point.

I NEED SOME HELP!

I am a little worried.

I do not own a Keystone RV but am in the research phase right now. Currently own a '99 Minnie Winnie.

My plan is to get a "Fiver" and start full-time boondockin. My work takes me on the road a lot and I will be traveling a lot in Canada in some fairly remote places.

I want something at or under 30 feet.

So how I kind of settled on Keystone was: I'm really looking for a cold-weather rig...and someone told me Keystone had a reputation for "4 seasons"--good insulation, heated tanks, etc.

So let me repeat...I am not a casual camper...I will probably be living in my trailer most of the year....and in cold climates.

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Okay...so everything is fine....I'm doing my research...watching a lot of YouTube....and checking out all the videos I can on every model Keystone makes.

And I fell in love (let's just call it a crush)...with the Mountaineer (and/or the Alpine).

Keystone campers are gorgeous!


==============

The Problem.

I ran into a set of videos by this guy who bought a BRAND NEW 2011 Keystone Alpine 3500 RE.

He had video of ALL KINDS of poor craftsmanship...from screws falling out all OVER the place...to all kinds of doors falling off...the underbelly was sagging...electrical and water spaghetti mess nightmares. I mean the list went ON AND ON! And he had video.

-- I have also read of class-action suits against Thor Industries (which I guess owns Keystone).

-- Even on THIS website, the "Service and Warranty" threads are about 300% more than the "Support Kudos" threads.


==============

I am about to drop $65K really soon. Please!....if you own a Keystone RV, I need to hear your experience.

I'm a mechanic. If all you do is look at the "outside" of your RV (meaning the aesthetics), or if you think it's "really pretty," that probably won't help me much.

For those of you that actually care for and maintain the "mechanics" of your RV (which I would say is most proud owners, especially boondockers)--your input will be invaluable.

Also, FYI, I always place quality over aesthetics.

So.....Am I making a mistake looking into Keystone? Also, if you have a better recommendation (especially for cold weather living) please let me know [if it doesn't violate forum rules].

Thank you !

Matt

[Festus2]

I would suggest that you read the posts by geo, one of our members and a former Alpine owner, who wrote extensively about the Alpine; and, in particular about steps he took to insulate the underbelly and what he found while exploring the depths of the Alpine. We affectionately refer to him as "Lord of the Underbelly" (amongst other things). You can find his posts in the Modifications and Upgrades section of the forum.

[Htfiremedic]

Geo has many good ideas and I am a follower. I own a 35' Fuzion Touring Edition II, toy hauler. We have the GenSet and all. It is the best fiver we found for our needs.
We have used several brands over the years. We love our Keystone so far. I'll be a repeat offender. The customer service I have had, so far, has been amazing! Easy to reach, patient and they we Johnny on the spot.

This is our baby! As with any purchase these days, look at what you want and carefully complete a PDI. That way, you are covered.
Safe travels!
Steve

[x96mnn]

I do not own either of the lines you are looking at but have found my Sprinter to be of great quality. I have something called the thermal package on my sprinter that extends my camping season but does not fully rate it four seasons in Canada from what my dealer explained.

As for complaints ask yourself when was the last time you called your phone or cable company and told them what a great job they were doing. Most people don't unless something is wrong.

No matter what camper you choose you will find people who have not so great things to say about the product line. Keystone produces a number of lines and I read a website 3 days ago that ranked them the second highest sold product line in RV's while another site rates them as one of the best value 5th wheels on the market. I can also find sites that do not rank them as high.

Some names that also come up when 4 season camping is mentioned are Crossroads which brag they have the highest R value in the industry followed by Artic Fox and Nash. I have heard a company called Space Craft will custom build you an RV to suit your needs but be prepared to increase or close to double your current spend.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[ResearchPhase]

Well thank you folks. it's good to hear that at least someone is very happy.

I found some isolated blogs last night of dissatisfied customers....but then I found the motherload of websites with a lot of customers who had horrible experiences...immediately after the purchase.

I will take you guys (or gals ) advice and see what geo has to say.

Is it possible that Keystone has multiple manufacturing facilities, and one of them has good quality control while maybe the other is absolute crud ?

A lot of people were complaining of roof problems...delam, etc. And not 50K miles in either....Right after purchase !

Cause i tell you what...I have some serious reservations after what I've read.

=======================

htfiremedic...that Fuzion is some serious eye candy! Does that caster wall work well? How long have you had it? Does that toy ramp affect the insulation much (I would think not since there's a door to the garage that can close)? Also...does that carpet get messed up by constantly rolling it up and unrolling? Trust me....was eyeing that model!

[X-Treme]

Just a quick note..... You will NOT find an Alpine or a toyhauler at or under 30ft long. Better be upping that to at or around 40ft. And you'll be needing the proper tow rig for units of this size.

[ResearchPhase]

Thanx X-Treme.

Yes...really looking more at the Mountaineer. I'm not dead stuck at 30 ft exactly...but want it shorter rather than longer. Seems like national parks and such aren't so friendly to the bigger rigs. Plus, I'll be (kinda) off-road a bit. I'm worried about excessive flexing and want a stiffer frame.

[mikell]

I'm in an Alpine for the 3rd winter in Michigan. You will have to get it winter ready but no problems here. Whatever you get make sure it has the heat pump to save propane. It will work down to 30f no problem.

I think there's a winter setup Alpine on the site for sale if you look around.

Here it is. You owe me lunch

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8861

[geo]

Matt -

You are correct, the US National Parks are not set up well for RVs over 32 feet. However, there are usually RV parks around outside the NP that can handle larger units.

Thank all of you for the compliments!

I have just learned that the Alpine mentioned by Mikell has sold. Someone has that all-season Alpine on the road! Maybe he/she will become a member of the Forum. I left a note in the drawer!

Though a lot of manufacturers "talk" about the insulation packages, including Keystone, there are not many RVs that seem to be truly all-season insulated. As in the Alpine - the floor has one heck of an insulation factor with plenty of open areas to the underbelly for cold breezes. In short, each RV owner that wants to venture out in the cold needs to check himself/herself by peering into the underbelly to assure that the tanks, plumbing, and underbelly is prepared for cold weather.

One does not have to look far in any forum to find "mad, unsatisfied owners". The one particular individual you mention with his own website has visited here and vented. As the saying and the song goes, "It takes all kinds to make the World".

Matt, if you want to PM me, I can answer any questions you might have from my own adventures into the Alpine underbelly. And, yes, there are better RVs out there than the Keystone lineup, and there are worst RVs out there than the Keystone lineup. One must make one's own mind up as to the desired aspects of an RV versus the price of the RV and what "sweat equity" one wants to put in an RV. Our Alpine was our first fiver - and I will say I learned a lot that I shared here in the Forum. I will also assure you that we were, overall, happy with our Alpine. And, yes, we have traded it as our plans and needs evolved.

Good luck! And Happy Camping!

Ron
(Still Lord of the Underbelly! )

[Festus2]

Matt -
If you would be using any Keystone product that has been labelled "Polar Package", "Arctic Package", or "Thermal Package", do not be misled by that. Keystone would like you to believe that this means that these units are packed with insulation and will be able to withstand prolonged periods of freezing temps on their own. This is simply not the case and extensive modifications and upgrades will be necessary before that will happen.
Our Cougar has an "Arctic Package" label on the side. Let's start at geo's favorite place to hang out - the underbelly. The coroplast has all sorts of unsealed openings - cracks, cutouts, etc., that would allow cold air to get in. The Cougar's tanks are not heated nor covered with any insulation. Pipes are exposed.
The only heat that reaches this area is produced by the propane furnace and which travels through a small, 2 inch ductwork. By the time it reaches areas that should be heated, it is barely warm. Unless the furnace is going, there will be no heat.
Geo has written volumes about the insulation so I won't go there. Read what he has to say.
You stated that you would be moving about in Canada to "many remote places" as well as dry-camping while there. If you plan on keeping your RV warm in those situations in cold weather, it will be a challenge - especially without electricity.
I think you would also need to have your unit skirted if you are planning to spend long periods of time in freezing temperatures. You didn't indicate if this is part of your plan so skirting may not apply.
My point about these advertising gimmicky labels that Keystone has stuck on their units is that they are just that and provide little, if any, protection against prolonged periods of really cold weather. Depending upon where your travels take you and what time of year you are going, you may find that the 4 season camping concept is exactly that --- a concept.

[SAABDOCTOR]

Hi there i have owned 3 montana's loved all three.nothin man made is perfect! i am also a mechanic and by my log in you can see that i am a glutton for punishment.that said i have only had to do routine maintanace and some minor repair (trim work and adjust the front door) we had a couple of recalls and the dealer did the needed repairs quickly and neatlly. if i were to buy another camper i too would stay with keytone. good luck with your unit what ever one you buy.

[T-Bone]

We're on our 2nd Keystone, had an Outback 230rs and now just moved to a Fuzion 315. The 315 brand new just ran me under 55K so if your shopping especialy now keep an eye out for last years models. Deals are there to be had.

[Terry W.]

We are on our 3rd Keystone Product. We statred with an Outback 25RS, then into a Sprinter 300KBS now in an Avalanche 330RE. I guess it's like cars and truck you become connected to one brand or another

[BOU0146]

I have 2010 3500RE that I have stayed in comfortably till zero F. Any colder than that and you will have to upgrade insulation and draft protection. It is thirty below as I write this in the Great White North and I do not think I could live comfortably in my Alpine the way it sits. The most important thing is to make sure you buy from a reputable dealer. I had slide out issues with mine that Keystone tried to have the dealer do $5.00 repairs on a $100.00 problem. It came to the point where the dealer stepped up and repaired it properly and stated he would fight with Keystone later.

[geo]

Originally Posted by BOU0146

I have 2010 3500RE that I have stayed in comfortably till zero F. Any colder than that and you will have to upgrade insulation and draft protection. It is thirty below as I write this in the Great White North and I do not think I could live comfortably in my Alpine the way it sits. The most important thing is to make sure you buy from a reputable dealer. I had slide out issues with mine that Keystone tried to have the dealer do $5.00 repairs on a $100.00 problem. It came to the point where the dealer stepped up and repaired it properly and stated he would fight with Keystone later.

BOU0146 -
Just curious, but at -17C, were you using the water system or the waste tanks? Or were you just "using" the Alpine?

Ron

[mikell]

We live in our Alpine with full hookups and I only close the tanks about every other month just to flush them out good. It's 5 out right now with 20 mph winds and have never had a problem with the black or grey. I was going to post picture of the Alpine in the snow but it won't slow down enough to get one.

Oil filled heater in the basement that comes on at 42 fireplace running and the furnace comes on about every 15 minutes. Electric blankets on 9 and when we go to bed the furnace will be turned to 65 and will only run 3-4 times tonight.

See ya tomorrow

[SAD]

Originally Posted by mikell

We live in our Alpine with full hookups and I only close the tanks about every other month just to flush them out good...

Certainly you mean gray... You don't leave the black tank open? Just the gray right?

[geo]

Mikell -

If I remember correctly, you are in a permanent site at your location and fully skirted with insulated skirting. Your Alpine does not travel, especially in the winter. That would certainly be the correct way to keep the tanks and plumbing defrosted in the cold.

Ron

[mikell]

Both tanks open and no skirting and no were in one spot. Haven't had any problems it's 0 this morning with lots of wind and lake effect snow. most schools within 50 miles are closed. Had fresh biscuits and gravy this morn at 5 AM.

Bought the Alpine to get through a winter while the building was being remodeled but been ther 3 now because nobody is buying land so the cash flow is low.The land is going to be sold after the first of March there's 2 buyers lined up but waiting for the new tax breaks to sell so by summer the Alpine will be put to pasture it's worked better than I would have expected.


Heat tape on the water line and it's 50' long with no problems in it's 4th winter. Sewer line just runs across under the unit to the hookup and it has never froze. -22 was a low last year and no problem.

Radiator oil type heater in the basement with a wall section removed it's set at 40 keeps the bedroom floor warm too

[michael]

Good luck mikell