Calling all weight polic: 5th wheel question

[sourdough]

Every vehicle weight will vary by any number of things whether installed by the manufacturer or the buyer, right down to a cup holder. It would be impossible, and impractical, for any manufacturer to try to build an algorithm that adjusted every change to a vehicle a prospective buyer might make then make that instantly available via some interactive system.

GM does a terrible job IMO and leads folks to make errors; Ford isn't much better. Unfortunately that leaves any prospective buyer in a lurch and requires them to be able to "read between the lines" and understand how it all works. The bad thing is that folks just trying to get into towing don't have a clue understandably and that is 100% on the truck builders.

RVs are the same way. Built in so many ways, there are a zillion ways a trailer can be loaded....and loaded with who knows what that varies from owner to owner.

How to even hope to navigate that? Hope, educate yourself and study, study, study. Always use the highest weight numbers available (gvwr) because one day you will get there. Always give yourself some "reserves" (I like 10%). Scale your rig and the list continues.

As far as how to know the payload of a "not yet built" truck, you don't. Use all the available data to try to get as close as you can and always err on the high side when calculating weights. Never use "max towing weight" for any vehicle just like "unloaded/dry" weights; meaningless.

The "goal" is to be safe, not "get by", "cut corners", "make excuses" and then hope.

[RickV]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Eventually, we’ll want to upgrade to a bigger 5th wheel and TV, and when we do that is predicated on if we’re living at our current house or not, and if a SRW 1-ton would handle it. (Driveway isn’t big enough for a dually and another car, and HOA won’t let us keep it in the street. The advertised pin weight for the trailer is 2750 (empty) which is 750 more than the entire payload of our 3/4 ton. With GM throwing about a poor estimate (15% total weight) the LAST thing I want to do is end up with a truck that’s pushing it’s limits…again.

I want a dually, and I want property I can store the trailer on rent-free. I just have to move to get it.

Dually's are only 8' wide vs SRW's which are 6' 8" you are only talking about 16" difference.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by RickV

Dually's are only 8' wide vs SRW's which are 6' 8" you are only talking about 16" difference.

Dually owners can be as bad as reformed smokers...

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

It’s still more than a little annoying that it seems like there’s one more variable than equations where it comes to these things.

When I don’t understand how something works I get annoyed as well. That's when I find as much information as I can and enlighten myself. That's exactly what you are doing and will start to "click". Unfortunately this is the current state of how advertising works and has worked since man crawled out of cave ans started trading his clubs.

[RickV]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Dually owners can be as bad as reformed smokers...

What can I say

[Laredo Tugger]

Well Marshall since you mentioned clubs, I'm getting annoyed because my irons out of my golf bag are not performing like they used to. I try to avoid getting "too much" information when it comes to trying to fix golf problems. They call them "swing thoughts" and it is real easy to "over think" what should be a simple motion.
But to stay on point of the thread, I was told a long time ago you should always have "more truck than trailer". However the numbers come out with the multiple calculations available, you should always error on the side of safety and have a sufficient TV.
Define "sufficient"? Well if you have been on here (this forum) long enough some form of the definition is broadcast almost daily, and there is nothing wrong with that. No you do not need a dually for a pop-up trailer, but for a 16K fifth wheel trailer? Probably not a bad idea. Problem is MANY (just walk around any bustling campground these days) have prescribed to the "3/4 ton is enough truck" mentality and that 16K trailer is too much, anyway you slice it.
Fault? An uneducated public, there is no real school or certification process for personal towing compliances. "Let freedom ring" I'm all for it! Insurance companies may not be. And fault also lies with the "sales" component of both the trucks and trailers. Dealers of both peddling misinformation for the sake of a "sale". The trailer dealers know the numbers, they will not sell you a large fifth wheel and let you hitch up to a F150. So why are they allowed to repeat this with the wrong truck (250/2500} again? The moment they lift the jacks on the trailer, available "payload" had disappeared and they know it.
Remedy"? I've often wished I had a pop up sign on my truck that reads "More truck, ChucK!" for the 6 wheel toy hauler being towed by a 250/2500 with the headlights poised for aircraft surveillance. Yes they are out there.
No I am not bashing 250/2500 owners. They have a place in the towing market.
Reality, try to avoid them on the highway and look at the pictures of the accident scenes hoping no one was hurt. Those seem to be the only two solutions I can come up with at this time.
RMc

[Rocketsled]

Gotta get the family trained. With two teenagers and the wife, sometimes I can’t get around the suv and the Mercedes’ they’re parked to wonky.

(Mercedes is a 92’ 400e with 200k miles, lest you start to get any ideas. )

[flybouy]

Can't help you with the golf clubs, after , two arm, 1 hand, three shoulder surgeries and 7 cervical spine surgeries I don't swing golf clubs.

Truck weight capacity limits are just like any other limit, they are there to help guide folks in the safe use of a particular product. If you buy a 4 passenger vehichle it will have 4 sets of seat belts. If you travel with more than 4 people you endanger the folks without seat belts and are violating the law. That's why they make other vehichles with a more capacity to seat more people.

What I don't understand is why some people can't accept that concept and apply it to weights. I guess it's just not "visual" enough because when overloaded the visual clues is the rear springs sagging and installing air bags or other devices will "visually correct" that. To me it's like taking 5 people in a 4 passenger vehichle and tying ropes to the other two seatbelts to tie around the fifth passenger.

[Rocketsled]

In THIS thread it was just “is payload payload irregardless of bumper-pull or gooseneck”…but then it ran off the rails.

And there’s just enough teasing with these things to lease a person to the narrative they want.

“This trailer is 16,800…GM says the pin weight oughta be 2520….the manufacturer says it’s 2750…common rule of thumb says….3864”

And you can’t go googling for payload because it’s unique to each vehicle.

I’d been giving two axle toy haulers the side-eye because TWENTY THOUSAND POUNDS GVWR (for a triple axle) just seems that much harder to find a rig, tow, find a parking space…but a truck that can tow it would have a good pad for a 16,800 lb trailer


As far as the DRW vs SRW, it may not be THAT much wider, but around here, you’re parking and walking, anywhere you go. It’s probably a necessary step, but it’s going to take concessions.

[Laredo Tugger]

"As far as the DRW vs SRW, it may not be THAT much wider, but around here, you’re parking and walking, anywhere you go. It’s probably a necessary step, but it’s going to take concessions"

Many of us have been there and done that my friend.
RMc

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

"As far as the DRW vs SRW, it may not be THAT much wider, but around here, you’re parking and walking, anywhere you go. It’s probably a necessary step, but it’s going to take concessions"

Many of us have been there and done that my friend.
RMc

Well that concession should not be pressing payload! As a driver of DRW I call BS on parking and walking. I say 90% of the size issue with a DRW is a mental issue with the driver.
We full time and our 2016 is our only vehicle, there are very few places I won’t go that maybe a SRW might go.

There is nothing like watching a SRW coming at you on a city street with a travel lane width of at least 11’ and have that SRW run with tires on the center line when passing a parked car!

[flybouy]

Life is nothing but concessions, you just need to weigh the benefit vs the consequences and decide is it worth it to you. In my mind, I will not make concessions that negatively impact the safety of myself or others.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Fair…and then ‘weight the actual weights, not an estimate’ is the right way to go…but then would the payload sticker be the final word?

Since we're "speaking strictly in hypotheticals".....

The "payload sticker" is only valid on the day the truck was weighed at the end of the assembly line and the sticker was attached to the door frame....

As soon as it rolled onto the dealer's lot and you bought it, that "maximum payload" becomes a "conditional payload"... in other words, if your DW is sitting in the passenger's seat and she weighs 300 pounds, you have less payload than if she's sitting in the passenger's seat and weighs 100 pounds...

To "clarify" the above: It could be weight in her purse or weight on her seat, both affect that "yellow sticker" by reducing the remaining "available payload"...

So, hypothetically, ALL weight ratings, Payload, RAWR, FAWR, GVWR, receiver weight rating, hitch weight rating all MUST be considered and not exceeded....

When you "speak strictly hypothetically" it's very likely IMPOSSIBLE to reach a manufacturers SAE J2807 procedural fifth wheel rating which uses a "gooseneck flatbed trailer rating procedure" which calls for balancing the trailer weight so 15% of the gross weight is positioned on the pin. You'll NEVER find such an RV... Did I mention it's impossible" to find a fifth wheel RV that can be balanced that way ?????

So, when you use a chart in a brochure that deals with "SAE procedures to certify a flatbed trailer to obtain a maximum gooseneck/fifth wheel towing weight", you can't (CAN NOT) apply that to similar weights when towing a recreational vehicle that is not set up the same way (carefully balancing the pin weight to attain 15% of gross trailer weight for testing purposes)...

Real world and "brochure world" are entirely different realities !!!!!

If the "brochure weight limit on your truck is 750 pounds lighter than the brochure weight of your dream fifth wheel RV, then you need a new truck or a new dream RV.....

Obtaining the actual "SAE J2807 procedural requirements will cost you $85.
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_201602/

Here is a "Motor Trend report" from about 6 years ago that gives the "performance details" https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...-the-standard/ BUT it doesn't go into the actual "trailer setup procedure" which is shown in one of the photos. Take a look at the photo around the middle of the report, which shows a Ford and a RAM dually, both hitched to a "red flatbed". Take note of the way the trailers are loaded, with flat sheets of steel, positioned over the axles. Those sheets are moved "fore/aft" as needed to attain "precisely 15% pin weight"... Then the test is performed "sort of like Motor Trend describes"...

THAT TEST AIN'T REAL WORLD RV TOWING !!!!!

[Ribtip]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

In THIS thread it was just “is payload payload irregardless of bumper-pull or gooseneck”…but then it ran off the rails.

And there’s just enough teasing with these things to lease a person to the narrative they want.

“This trailer is 16,800…GM says the pin weight oughta be 2520….the manufacturer says it’s 2750…common rule of thumb says….3864”

And you can’t go googling for payload because it’s unique to each vehicle.

I’d been giving two axle toy haulers the side-eye because TWENTY THOUSAND POUNDS GVWR (for a triple axle) just seems that much harder to find a rig, tow, find a parking space…but a truck that can tow it would have a good pad for a 16,800 lb trailer


As far as the DRW vs SRW, it may not be THAT much wider, but around here, you’re parking and walking, anywhere you go. It’s probably a necessary step, but it’s going to take concessions.

O.p i answered your question very simple with a yes yesterday. Anything else you will read here after that is opinion. Do not cross any weight on your truck. And be glad you didn't ask about what color to buy.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Ribtip

O.p i answered your question very simple with a yes yesterday. Anything else you will read here after that is opinion. Do not cross any weight on your truck. And be glad you didn't ask about what color to buy.

Well gee, thank you for your authoritative final answer. Now we can stop reading and replying.

[Ribtip]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Well gee, thank you for your authoritative final answer. Now we can stop reading and replying.

That would help. Thank you

[notanlines]

Nope, mine was fact, not opinion! At least that’s my opinion!

[Ribtip]

The point is the man asked a very simple question and as always it gets turned in to a **** show of repeated over and over info that had nothing to do with the question.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Ribtip

The point is the man asked a very simple question and as always it gets turned in to a **** show of repeated over and over info that had nothing to do with the question.

Here's another point. The OP had several follow up questions. Don't be so sanctimonious to think "you have already answered the question" so there's no need for further discussion. This is a forum and will continue to welcome opinions from all. Your option is to not read the opinions if they bore you.

[Ribtip]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Here's another point. The OP had several follow up questions. Don't be so sanctimonious to think "you have already answered the question" so there's no need for further discussion. This is a forum and will continue to welcome opinions from all. Your option is to not read the opinions if they bore you.

Thank you for keeping me laughing.