door & window frame heat

[Life-in-Him]

Wanted to see if this has been addressed?
Measured the heat conducted into the rig in Summer & out in winter via the metal door & window frames.
Here in AZ 4/1/2022 (no joke) today the wall temps are 83, same as OAT.
The D/W frames measure 102-115° inside on the sunny side. A huge amount of heat added to the inside needing cooled down or ignored.
Had done similar delta temps in winter (70 inside air, frames @ anything from 30-50 frame temp. Usually 20 degrees above OAT)

This is all conducted via the frames that are continuous in to out.

Any ideas on how to decrease such conduction?
We use barrier's to cover the glass but the framing seems to be a greater issue

In a 2020 Cougar 24sabwe full time & traveled 25 states & 38,000 miles since new.

[flybouy]

If you have a metal transitioning from an exterior to an interior space then yes the thermal conductivity will be high. The insulating value is negligable. The very short distance from inside to outside will just exhasperate the condition. With single pane windows you don't even have that minimal air space.

Despite catchy names like "polar ready" the truth is it's a trailer not a house. Insulation is minimal and the box is far from airtight. If you want to stay cool in a hot climate the a/c will run constantly and if you want to stay warm when it's cold you better have a lot of propane. It's the nature of the beast.

[sourdough]

It is the nature of the beast as Marshall said. You can cover the windows with something like Reflectix if you don't care to see out to help with the windows and as far as the metal edges, I just pull down the shades to cover the metal edges and stop some/most of the heat movement into the room. If you want to leave the windows open in full sun be prepared to sweat a bit or buy another A/C or 2.

[Life-in-Him]

Some airstreams have reflective Al frames but I don't know how much that helps or if it's part of the Al ethos.
Wondered if anyone had tried white paint, some type of stickon insulation, or other ideas.
Putting a plastic thermal barrier between the 2 frame pieces would mean taking out all the screws (I'm sure they conduct also) but might get in the way of some sliding panes.
Just looking down the row of rigs here & only 2 of 7 have non-black frames.
It's kind of like the white or black bent cover discussions I guess.
1's better in Winter, the other in summer. YMMV

[sourdough]

I think in the scheme of things if you have single pane windows (I'm relatively certain you do) then the minimal amount of heat that would get radiated from the metal trim/frame to the interior would be unnoticeable if removed. The results of any mod wouldn't be worth the time and money spent trying to accomplish the task. I wouldn't have any idea that my framing was hot if I hadn't touched it as the large amount of heat radiating through the glass makes it insignificant.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Life-in-Him

Some airstreams have reflective Al frames but I don't know how much that helps or if it's part of the Al ethos.
Wondered if anyone had tried white paint, some type of stickon insulation, or other ideas.
Putting a plastic thermal barrier between the 2 frame pieces would mean taking out all the screws (I'm sure they conduct also) but might get in the way of some sliding panes.
Just looking down the row of rigs here & only 2 of 7 have non-black frames.
It's kind of like the white or black bent cover discussions I guess.
1's better in Winter, the other in summer. YMMV

Not being a smartelick but you didn’t buy an Airstream. I don't think any modification to that thin aluminum surrounding a large single pane window would make any noticable difference.

[JRTJH]

Having owned an Airstream, I can assure you that the window frames are a solid aluminum extrusion, formed around the curved corners and riveted in place (to form the completed frame) at the aft end where the levered props push the "awning style window" out for ventilation. They are anodized, not painted, but the "silver color" gets just as hot as my dark gray/black window frames on the Cougar.....

But, what the heck, that Airstream, 30' for $180K or 33' for $200K comes with single pane windows, and even has a door bell and a "signature entry mat".... But, just like the Keystone, turn off the furnace or the air conditioner, and in just a few minutes, you'll be reaching for a sweater or opening the windows trying to cool things off.....

[wiredgeorge]

I am slow. What is OAT? What are D/W frames? I realize the insulation in a camper is not great and that the metal frame conducts outside heat. Just a couple suggestions:
1. Park in the shade if possible.
2. Get some very dark window tint (at least 80 percent) and apply to your windows. The thrill of looking out camping windows is greatly exaggerated. Mostly you just see other campers.
3. Many campers here is sunny south Texas have Shade RV covers which seem like a great idea unless you are moving around constantly as they require installed/taken down when a camper moves: https://www.shaderv.com/ - much of the heat issues are coming from the sun beating on your roof as the insulation there is not much better than the walls.

[Life-in-Him]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I am slow. What is OAT? What are D/W frames? I realize the insulation in a camper is not great and that the metal frame conducts outside heat. Just a couple suggestions:
1. Park in the shade if possible.
2. Get some very dark window tint (at least 80 percent) and apply to your windows. The thrill of looking out camping windows is greatly exaggerated. Mostly you just see other campers.
3. Many campers here is sunny south Texas have Shade RV covers which seem like a great idea unless you are moving around constantly as they require installed/taken down when a camper moves: https://www.shaderv.com/ - much of the heat issues are coming from the sun beating on your roof as the insulation there is not much better than the walls.

Sorry for the acronyms.
OAT outside air temp. A leftover from my flying days.
W/D Windows/Doors since we dumb country boys have trouble spelling them long word things.

Here in desert AZ shade is hard to find & even harder to buy. But we keep looking.
I've been surprised @ how little the roof heats up. It's been within 2° of IAT (Inside AT) even on 90+ days with windows open & stays within 5° of IAT when closed & A|C on.
That's what caused me to chase this rabbit. There are areas around the doors, slide, & windows that get over 100 & obviously missed the insulation breakfast teachings sessions. But we can put noodles or drapes over those to save some major BTU gains or losses.
We're just looking to see if anybody has chased this rabbit & reduced their energy consumption $$$ in other ways.
We haven't tried slide toppers or extends-shades, added solar, gone lifepo yet either.

[wiredgeorge]

Our house thermometer is 102F as we speak. I am installing a WiFi booster and a Cell Booster system and don't have my 14K BTU portable set up and running; just my roof 15K BTU Brisk II and it is 78F in the camper. I have spent many hours doing everything I can do to keep our camper liveable in the balmy Texas summer.

[flybouy]

But it's a dry heat right?

[wiredgeorge]

Wind coming from the Chihuahuan desert and 14 percent humidity. We had a wildfire that was stopped about two miles from our home last week as there is no moisture in the air and windy. Burned almost 1100 acres. Fire was to our west and was going mostly north thankfully. https://sanantonioreport.org/das-goa...nty-contained/

[Bnystrom]

I've recently made Reflectix panels for all the windows in our RV (not a Keystone). They fit within the window frames, completely cover the glass, and are held in place by the internal pleated blinds. I noticed this morning that the window frames are radiating a lot of heat inside and luckily found this discussion.

Here are some interior surface temp measurements (degrees F) I just took with an outside air temp of 86 and full sun:

Window in sun with Reflectix: 85
Adjacent wall: 91
Window frame: 110-117, lower at bottom, higher at top

Roof – full thickness, ~3.5": 86 - 92

Skylight with Reflectix: 98
Surrounding roof, ~2" thick: 108
Frame: 101 – 118

Windshield with Reflectix: 96

All of the windows are single pane. The main roof is a fiberglass/styrofoam/plywood laminate. The roof surrounding the skylight is curved fiberglass with some insulation, but there's probably air space between the outer shell and the insulation

From the results above it's pretty clear that:

1. Reflectix does a pretty good job of blocking the worst heat transmission through the glass.
2. Heat conduction through the window and skylight frames is substantial. I would definitely like to address this.
3. The windshield is a significant contributor of heat, but we knew that.
4. The full thickness roof also does a good job of blocking the heat, but the thinner roof area is a concern.

I'm wondering if painting the outside window frames silver (which matches the coach color scheme) would reduce their heat transmission? They would still be black where the glass and screens attach, so those areas would still absorb and conduct some heat.



I also wonder if anyone makes interior window frames from a less conductive material than aluminum?

As an experiment, I may try covering a window frame with foil tape - which is highly reflective - to see if it makes any difference.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Bnystrom

I've recently made Reflectix panels for all the windows in our RV (not a Keystone). They fit within the window frames, completely cover the glass, and are held in place by the internal pleated blinds. I noticed this morning that the window frames are radiating a lot of heat inside and luckily found this discussion.

Here are some interior surface temp measurements (degrees F) I just took with an outside air temp of 86 and full sun:

Window in sun with Reflectix: 85
Adjacent wall: 91
Window frame: 110-117, lower at bottom, higher at top

Roof – full thickness, ~3.5": 86 - 92

Skylight with Reflectix: 98
Surrounding roof, ~2" thick: 108
Frame: 101 – 118

Windshield with Reflectix: 96

All of the windows are single pane. The main roof is a fiberglass/styrofoam/plywood laminate. The roof surrounding the skylight is curved fiberglass with some insulation, but there's probably air space between the outer shell and the insulation

From the results above it's pretty clear that:

1. Reflectix does a pretty good job of blocking the worst heat transmission through the glass.
2. Heat conduction through the window and skylight frames is substantial. I would definitely like to address this.
3. The windshield is a significant contributor of heat, but we knew that.
4. The full thickness roof also does a good job of blocking the heat, but the thinner roof area is a concern.

I'm wondering if painting the outside window frames silver (which matches the coach color scheme) would reduce their heat transmission? They would still be black where the glass and screens attach, so those areas would still absorb and conduct some heat.



I also wonder if anyone makes interior window frames from a less conductive material than aluminum?

As an experiment, I may try covering a window frame with foil tape - which is highly reflective - to see if it makes any difference.

There are companies that make, usually wherever you're parked, solar screens that snap on outside that cover the windows & frames. We had them in past on our 5th wheel, they did, in my opinion, as good a job as the reflectix, looked very nice, much better than the bubble wrap, you could still see out the windows & didn't have to have the lights on in the middle of the day.
Surprisingly they weren't that expensive! A retired couple had a van which had a sewing machine that folded out the back, he began measuring windows while she began sewing, as she completed one he attached it to the rv, in about an hour & half all were made & installed, excellent job & were guaranteed for life. They did probably 30-40 rvs, motorhomes & towables, that winter just in that campground in Port Aransas TX along with others in that area.

[jsb5717]

It’s very interesting data you’ve collected. But I’m afraid you’ll just need to file that in the Good-To-Know file since there isn’t really anything you can do about it. Just like commercial or nicer residential aluminum frame windows, you could construct the RV window frames with a thermal break. That would definitely help mitigate the heat/cold transfer. However, as stated, it wouldn’t really gain you anything since the large real estate of single glazing in the windows is also working against you. The best mitigation is AC/Furnace running until you’re comfy. Yes, it’s a trailer, not a house, and there’s only so much you can do in 2” walls, small attic space, and minimal installation. Personally, I think it’s pretty amazing that these things have evolved to perform as well as they do.

On hot days (>90 deg) we keep the window shades down on the sunny side of the trailer, run both AC’s, and we do pretty well.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Bnystrom

I've recently made Reflectix panels for all the windows in our RV (not a Keystone). They fit within the window frames, completely cover the glass, and are held in place by the internal pleated blinds. I noticed this morning that the window frames are radiating a lot of heat inside and luckily found this discussion.

Here are some interior surface temp measurements (degrees F) I just took with an outside air temp of 86 and full sun:

Window in sun with Reflectix: 85
Adjacent wall: 91
Window frame: 110-117, lower at bottom, higher at top

Roof – full thickness, ~3.5": 86 - 92

Skylight with Reflectix: 98
Surrounding roof, ~2" thick: 108
Frame: 101 – 118

Windshield with Reflectix: 96

All of the windows are single pane. The main roof is a fiberglass/styrofoam/plywood laminate. The roof surrounding the skylight is curved fiberglass with some insulation, but there's probably air space between the outer shell and the insulation

From the results above it's pretty clear that:

1. Reflectix does a pretty good job of blocking the worst heat transmission through the glass.
2. Heat conduction through the window and skylight frames is substantial. I would definitely like to address this.
3. The windshield is a significant contributor of heat, but we knew that.
4. The full thickness roof also does a good job of blocking the heat, but the thinner roof area is a concern.

I'm wondering if painting the outside window frames silver (which matches the coach color scheme) would reduce their heat transmission? They would still be black where the glass and screens attach, so those areas would still absorb and conduct some heat.



I also wonder if anyone makes interior window frames from a less conductive material than aluminum?

As an experiment, I may try covering a window frame with foil tape - which is highly reflective - to see if it makes any difference.

I wouldn't recommend using the foil tape on the window frames, it would be a royal PITA to remove once you've found it didn't help & looks like crap.

[Bnystrom]

That's interesting, but our windows are basically flush with the outside walls, so I don't know what such covers would snap to. I agree that Reflectix isn't pretty, but it's a relatively inexpensive solution for now.

FWIW, my strategy for the Reflectix panels is to try to orient the RV so one side gets most of the sun and only install the panels on that side, the windshield and skylight, leaving the windows on the other side for light and ventilation.

[Bnystrom]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I wouldn't recommend using the foil tape on the window frames, it would be a royal PITA to remove once you've found it didn't help & looks like crap.

Yeah, I was wondering about removing it given that it's meant to be permanent. I'll scratch that off the test list.

[Bnystrom]

Originally Posted by jsb5717

It’s very interesting data you’ve collected. But I’m afraid you’ll just need to file that in the Good-To-Know file since there isn’t really anything you can do about it. Just like commercial or nicer residential aluminum frame windows, you could construct the RV window frames with a thermal break. That would definitely help mitigate the heat/cold transfer. However, as stated, it wouldn’t really gain you anything since the large real estate of single glazing in the windows is also working against you.

Well, my measurements suggest that the Reflectix is dramatically reducing the solar gain from the glass, so if there's a way to effectively create a thermal break in the frames, it should help significantly...the key being something that's truly effective. Worst case, it would still reduce heat buildup and the load on the AC.

[LHaven]

Reflectix looks like the same stuff the stock Camco door-window sun-blockers are made of. Beware of reflected heat.

I bought a couple of the Camcos and installed them on the inside of my doors... then discovered the interior black bezel melted and sagged in the same place on both doors, from the reflected (and apparently focused) desert sunlight. Hurriedly folded up some aluminum foil barriers to line the bottom of the bezels (the sun-blockers hold them in place) and stopped the degradation.